Hi Tim, just for the record. I was given a flow hive with frames ready to harvest. After harvesting the honey I decided not to use the flow frames that are now sitting on top of a cupboard. Therefore I haven’t “moved away from using flow hives in general”. I sell colonies to people who own flow hives. I tell them what can possibly happen & how to avoid it ever happening to them. I give them as much advice & answer as many question as I can, in about 45 minutes while I transfer the bees into their nuc box & wait for the bees to return home just on dark. What they do with that information is entirely up to them. I also advise them to join this forum & ask questions.
I did read where Peter said he was thinking about selling his flow hives.
@Ruttneri, On the topic of “cycling out brown old frames”. Old & brown is no reason to cycle frames out of the brood. @Michael_Bush, a friend of Flow once told me he keeps his brood frames for up to 26 years.
The only reason I would cycle frames out of the brood would be if the frame had an unacceptable amount of drone or unusable comb on it. Here’s one example.
PS @Ruttneri, to answer your question on cycling the frames out of the brood. There are a couple of options. #1. Your second flow hive could be a hybrid. You could cycle the frames through the hybrid hive. Another option #2. You could remove one or two flow frames out of the flow super, make a gap in the middle in which to put the cycled frames into. You’ll need a thin packer to sit the frames onto at the harvest end. Then close the gap, leaving gaps on both sides, while keeping the back panel in place. Option #3 would be what I suggested earlier, have a resource hive. It can be from a split or a swarm you might pick up along the way.
It took me awhile to realise what you are trying to do. You want to move an old brood frame into a super, to allow brood to emerge and prevent the queen from laying up further? Then, do you leave this frame in the super to collect honey, or do you remove it?
If so, this “problem” is not specifically a flow hive issue.The traditional system that I use (National) has differently sized brood and super frames so exchanging between the two is impossible. But neither would I want a brood frame in the super. Old brood frames can have all kinds of junk and missshapes.
Yes, it is highly recommended to change brood frames after every two years or so, some beeks do it every year. Frames can then be cleaned, sterilised and given new foundation and reused.
There are two ways to remove old brood frames; individually by moving them to the end of the brrod nest, them removing them, or all at once using a Bailey Frame Change. The latter allows the bees to draw out new foundation and change the entire brood box for fresh comb in three weeks. Its wonderful afterwards to see how well the queen lays in the new foundation.
Yes, this does require spare equipment (frames and a brood box), but as a beekeeper you can never have enough spare equipment.
This is something I want to look into. Thanks busso.
Thanks JeffH. This seems to be different advice from what I was reading. “Skeggley” above mentioned the build up of pesticides, which I searched on the internet and looks like she’s right. I live in a low socio economic area and I am sure a lot around me use pesticides indiscriminately, so would your advice be different in my case?
Sounds familiar to me Peter48. I came across a lot of hypocrisy that’s why I kept away from traditional beekeepers, and chimped along on my own. I do not want to generalise though because I’m sure others are keen to help but as soon as someone starts berating FLOW hives I switch off and turn away.
You nailed it JimM. Being away from the beekeeping fraternity I may explain things differently - something I want to rectify. I want to let the brood emerge so I can replace the foundation with fresh one. Thanks for your suggestions.
Initially you threw me thinking your Flow Frames had gone brown with time and use, it was @fffffred who got me onto what you were meaning. I cycle out brood frames and move them into a conventional hive super including the capped brood which will become a part of the conventional/traditional hive when they emerge after two years and get another 2 years use out of them then render the wax and fit new foundation into the frame.
Using correct terminology for a beginner is difficult but getting across what your meaning can be a big help in getting the right advice for your issue. You’ll get the hang of it as you progress without realizing it just by interaction with other bee keepers.
Cheers
I have frames that came with the nuc that have dark comb. I was scratching my head how I was going to replace them, I guess I am in a similar situation like @Ruttneri. After I read your comment I am now confused Jeff.
You say there is no reason to cycle frames, but is there any benefit in doing so?
Hi Boo, it’s basically what I said. If a frame ends up with too much drone comb on it for some reason, I’ll take it out of the brood. With that frame I showed, you could probably put that into a hive & the bees would most likely use it. Looking at that frame, it looks like only 1/2 the frame can be used for worker bees. The rest is made up of drone comb, unusable comb, gaps, an old sepersedure queen cell. The advantage of cycling that frame out & replacing it with fresh foundation means you get a frame that’s full of worker comb.
This research examined the effects of comb age on honey bee colony growth and brood survivorship. Experimental old combs were of an unknown age, but were dark and heavy as typical of combs one or more years old. New combs were produced just prior to the beginning of the experiment and had never had brood previously reared in them. Either old or new combs were installed into each of 21–24 nucleus colonies each year over a three-year period. On average, colonies with new comb produced a greater area (cm2) of brood, a greater area (cm2) of sealed brood, and a higher weight of individual young bees (mg). Brood survivorship was the only variable significantly higher in old comb.
Johnson RM, Dahlgren L, Siegfried BD, Ellis MD (2013) Acaricide, Fungicide and Drug Interactions in Honey Bees ( Apis mellifera ). PLoS ONE 8(1): e54092. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0054092
Abstract
Background
Chemical analysis shows that honey bees ( Apis mellifera ) and hive products contain many pesticides derived from various sources. The most abundant pesticides are acaricides applied by beekeepers to control Varroa destructor . Beekeepers also apply antimicrobial drugs to control bacterial and microsporidial diseases. Fungicides may enter the hive when applied to nearby flowering crops. Acaricides, antimicrobial drugs and fungicides are not highly toxic to bees alone, but in combination there is potential for heightened toxicity due to interactive effects.
Methodology/Principal Findings
Laboratory bioassays based on mortality rates in adult worker bees demonstrated interactive effects among acaricides, as well as between acaricides and antimicrobial drugs and between acaricides and fungicides. Toxicity of the acaricide tau-fluvalinate increased in combination with other acaricides and most other compounds tested (15 of 17) while amitraz toxicity was mostly unchanged (1 of 15). The sterol biosynthesis inhibiting (SBI) fungicide prochloraz elevated the toxicity of the acaricides tau-fluvalinate, coumaphos and fenpyroximate, likely through inhibition of detoxicative cytochrome P450 monooxygenase activity. Four other SBI fungicides increased the toxicity of tau-fluvalinate in a dose-dependent manner, although possible evidence of P450 induction was observed at the lowest fungicide doses. Non-transitive interactions between some acaricides were observed. Sublethal amitraz pre-treatment increased the toxicity of the three P450-detoxified acaricides, but amitraz toxicity was not changed by sublethal treatment with the same three acaricides. A two-fold change in the toxicity of tau-fluvalinate was observed between years, suggesting a possible change in the genetic composition of the bees tested.
Conclusions/Significance
Interactions with acaricides in honey bees are similar to drug interactions in other animals in that P450-mediated detoxication appears to play an important role. Evidence of non-transivity, year-to-year variation and induction of detoxication enzymes indicates that pesticide interactions in bees may be as complex as drug interactions in mammals.
@BooBees, you are getting caught between information about methods applicable in large beekeeping enterprises and what hobbyists impose on themselves based on their knowledge, many years of experience and confusion
For example, otherwise good but stretched and repaired by bees comb may be culled in big beekeeping farm because some portion of this comb is taken bridge (filler) cells and cannot be used at 100% efficiency. For hobbyist such situation is rather a matter of personal perfectionism, pride or something else. Economical impact of such comb in backyard beekeeping is negligible. In big farm it is percentage of income.
I believe benefits of frame cycling outweigh avoiding it. To name a few: wax is perfect absorbent for many toxic substances. Old comb is a storage for all possible pathogens. Cell size reduces with each generation (smaller bees, but not everyone see it as important). Old comb is more attractive for wax moth. Honey in newer comb may taste better. If one is interested in production of wax, its proportion is higher in newer comb and quality is higher, and many more. Given this, I don’t see any reason to hang on old comb. However, old comb is good for swarm baiting
Hi again Boo, what I’m trying to say is, old (which is relative to each individuals perception) & brown on their own is no reason to cycle frames out of the brood. Those two criteria should be accompanied with other factors. Sometimes I’ll cycle new frames out because the bees made a mess of the foundation or they could be pollen bound.
This is an example of the frames I like to see in my brood boxes.
I am a massive fan of cycling out old brood frames. I believe as frames get older the bees become listless. Bees in a hive full of superb freshly drawn comb are the happiest and most productive.
there are so many ways to cycle out frames - even with a flow hive. As Adam said the easiest is to start moving older frames to the outside edges and then remove them when they are all or mostly honey. You can also put them into the flow super temporarily- or you could put an additional box on upstairs and put them in there. Or you can place them on their side in the roof space propped up so the bees can access both sides.
We had a talk from a commercial beekeeper in South Australia at our bee society. Every year he takes out 3 to 4 brood frames from every hive and replaces them with freshly drawn combs from the end of the last season. He uses a barrier system and only put frames into a hive that came from that hive originally. In practice every single brood frame is only used for 3 years at most. All frames are replaced every three years. He believes that old combs become reservoirs for disease- like chalk brood spores and wax moth eggs. He replaces the old combs as part of his spring swarm management practices. So he kills many birds with one stone.
I am in total agreement with his theories. I think bees with fresh new combs have the same vitality as swarms do when they draw out a heap of fresh white comb very fast. There is nothing quite like a superb perfect brood box full of even fresh white combs. When you see a queen lay a sea of fresh eggs into a freshly drawn comb- you know she is loving it.
Another good thing about cycling out frames is it allows beekeepers to harvest more wax. Wax is getting to be in short supply here in Australia- and Australian bees wax is in high demand the world over. Wax from the USA, Europe and China is tainted with chemicals- Australian wax is the cleanest in the World. Foundation makers like Tobin and Son’s in NSW are finding it harder and harder to source enough good quality wax.
Thanks AdamMaskew, that has been a very interesting read.
Thanks ABB, I am now understanding why. You also mentioned that old comb is good for swarm baiting which is something that I want to try next season. So you just place some frames with with old comb in a brood box with a bottom board and lid, and wait for a swarm to move in?
That is a nice brood frame JeffH. Does pesticide build up worry at all when you consider cycling out frames?
That is a great idea Semaphore. Won’t the larvae/eggs fall out if you place the frame on the side?
You could say it balances out. New comb has more brood but brood survival is significantly higher in old comb.
I have mostly 3-4 year old comb in one hive and it is really dark. Some are lighter as a result of balancing hive strengths between two hives. The other hive has one year old comb in the bottom brood and top brood has a mix of 2 and 3-4 year old comb.
I do not detect any difference in the demeanour of both hives. Booth hives are quiet, friendly and a joy to work with.
Living in WA with wax moth our only worry, my strategies may be different to other parts of the country/world. I do not intend to replace any comb just on age or colour.
Hi Ruttnerie, I have to confess that I’ve never considered pesticide buildup in brood frames. I never knew it occurred. My brood frames never get old anyway. I’m continually splitting hives & moving frames around. No frames in any of my brood boxes would be much older than 12 months.
There’s lots of information out there to digest. You’ve just got to work your bees, make a few mistakes as we all do, learn from them & work out what suits your style of beekeeping.
My first mentor told me that if you hold an empty brood frame up to the light & can’t see any light through it, it’s time to change it for fresh foundation.
I mentioned that on the forum about 5 years ago & Michael Bush kind of rejected that idea & told us that he’s kept the same brood frames for up to 26 years. That IS old. You wouldn’t see any light through that comb.
PS, here’s that bit of conversation.
My comment:
Tip #8 If you can’t see light through an old frame, it’s time to cut it out
Michael Bush reply:
I never cut it out. I keep them until the wax moths eat them. I changed all my comb out to go to small cell but before that I had combs that were 26 years old I’m sure and until Varroa came along they were doing great on them. Bees winter better on comb with cocoons.
a few more points occurred to me. People say that it takes x number of kilos of honey to make 1 klio of wax- in other words it is expensive for bees to make. This is kind of true- but bees also use wax very efficiently. A 3.5kg full depth frame of honey may only have 120 grams of wax in it. That’s how efficient the bee comb structure is- it can hold up all of that weight with very little wax.
another thing: it is so much nicer to harvest fresh combs when spinning than older combs. Fresh new combs uncap very easily- whereas darker old combs can be less even and the cappings seem to be thicker. Then again they are stronger and don’t split when you spin- swings and roundabouts…
As much as a love a freshly drawn comb full of brood- I love even more a brand new frame full of honey. Also honey from older dark brood frames tends to be darker honey in my experience- and I am sure that the cleanest tasting honey comes from the freshest drawn combs. It could be that that older brood honey is more ‘medicinal’- or it could be that it has more bee poop, caccoon juice and pollutants in it.
As a newbie, I’m getting more and more confused. The four frames that came with my nuc were old wax frames or old and plastic - a hotch potch.
It sounds like moving them sideways will be the easiest option but so far I’ve read:
move them to the outside edges and the bees will crawl back - earlier thread(?),
move them at the end of winter when they’re empty (would they be?),
take them out when they’re gradually moved toward the outside and full of honey and put them in the flow super, another box or the roof cavity for not sure how long or what to expect.
Can someone elaborate on these please? Many thanks.
I’d like to cycle out the old dark frames but assume it’s too late to do it now so would like to do it in spring (I’m in Victoria and we’re unlikely to get much warm weather from here.
I see this method mentioned often in beekeeping literature and I use it too. I believe it is more universal than a recommendation to replace comb every so many years. What matters is a number of brood generations produced on a particular frame. And this number may vary between climatic zones and bee strains.
The same mentor told me how the bees get smaller & smaller, which is true, however in recent years I’m reading how small cell foundation is better than regular cell foundation etc. etc. I stopped worrying about the bees getting smaller because natural built comb is smaller than regular foundation & it doesn’t get replaced in natural hives. Imagine how small bees in natural hives get after quite a few years of continuous cocoon buildup.
I seem to think & wonder if the bees chew the sides of the cocoons down after a while because the base of the cocoon buildup always seem thicker than the sides.
Maybe the thickness in the base of the cocoon buildup might be larval faeces.
Brood box probably is an overkill. Nuc is usually sufficient. Otherwise, yes. Put couple of old frames in. Some believe a smear of lemongrass oil inside of box improves chances. Put it somewhere high and wait who comes first. Bees or wax moth
Not much. About 1% difference. But when it comes to collection of nectar from plants where amount collected depends on possibility to reach it 1% industry-wide it makes noticeable difference.
How is this important for a backyard beekeeper? Probably, not at all. That is why I wouldn’t put size of the cell as particularly important reason for comb renewal for a hobbyist.
