# Flow hive and queen excluders🐝 **URL:** \ **Category:** Beekeeping - Basics\ **Created:** [September 12, 2020, 5:21am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/flow-hive-and-queen-excluders/27482 "2020-09-12T05:21:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Seasidebees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Seasidebees](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Seasidebees)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 5:21am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/flow-hive-and-queen-excluders/27482/1 "2020-09-12T05:21:41Z")
Hi there I’m a newbie to bee keeping. I live on an island called Tasmania which is a state of mainland Australia. We live by the sea. I have 2 flow hives. Our winters are long and the season for honey short. Our Bees arrived as nucs for their new homes in November and December 2019. I concentrated on building the colonies up and gave them ideals as needed to store there honey, ready to bunker down for the coming winter of 2020. I stole no honey from them. They went into winter loaded with stores and came out strong still loaded with stores. We added flow supers a week ago. It was almost instant: the bees raced up in great numbers to the flowhive plastics. I was amazed at how quick and accepting they were. Then a couple days later I thought crap, I forgot to put on the excluders. So we took off the flowhive supers and put them in place under the flow hive super. Within an exceptional short time, they abandoned the flow hive supers. Couldn’t believe it. So today we removed the excluders to see if they would go back to working the frames. Woosh, straight back in there, within minutes in lots of numbers They still have there ideals above the brood chamber. So I’m hoping the queen will stick down. I don’t want honey from the ideals so she can brood in those also if she wants to. Hoping this will keep her happy and away from the flowhive super at the top. Both bee hives had this exact reaction to the excluders being not placed, then placed and then removed. I’m keeping them off for now. I am very much just a beginner. So have no option whether to exclude or not to exclude the queen. Just rolling with the vibe from the bees 🐝. Cheers Mandy I started with bee Nuc ---
**Author:** ![JimM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e57/32.png) [@JimM](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/JimM)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 9:14am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/flow-hive-and-queen-excluders/27482/2 "2020-09-12T09:14:27Z")
You need an excluder. If the queen lays in the super it will cause you no end of trouble. Try different types. Try to get a quality excluder. I like the one with steel bars. Plastic has not got a good reputation. Then patence. They will go up eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Webclan](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/webclan/32/11252_2.png) [@Webclan](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Webclan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 10:37am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/flow-hive-and-queen-excluders/27482/3 "2020-09-12T10:37:17Z")
Well, having an ideal on top of the brood, you may be lucky and the queen is happy enough down below. She can only lay drones into the flow frames. If she does, you may have to pick the cells clean before harvest. Best to check the flow frames before harvest. Especially the Centre ones. Having said that, I would use a metal queen excluder above your ideal. Once the nectar flow sets in, they sure will go up. Just be patient and trust in the flow. ---
**Author:** ![Seasidebees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Seasidebees](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Seasidebees)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 11:27am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/flow-hive-and-queen-excluders/27482/4 "2020-09-12T11:27:14Z")
Thanks for the replies. I will keep a check on the centre flow frames and buy metal excluders. I might wait a week before putting the excluders on. So they are really into it. Their initial reaction to the placement of the excluders bothered me coz both colonies are boiling and are in urgent need of space. I’ve even set up a swarm trap in case they swarm. This is the first season the super flows have been used. Already today, I can see they are waxing the cell gaps/ cracks in the flows and I saw nectar shining in a few. Amazing the progress they can achieve. They are jam packed in between each frame. One hive has 7 flow frames and the other has 3 flow frames in the middle a total of 4 timber frames on the outer sides that need to be drawn. One hive has larger size worker bees and drones than the other. For some reason. It’s how they have been from the start. Both hive bees look plump and shiny and healthy just the same. Cheers ---
**Author:** ![Peter48](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/peter48/32/14625_2.png) [@Peter48](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Peter48)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 9:37pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/flow-hive-and-queen-excluders/27482/5 "2020-09-12T21:37:52Z")
I have had a lot of negative experiences with plastic QX’s and won’t use them in my hives. They sag and so the slots open up and there is enough gap for the queen to pass through and lay in the super. They also become brittle with age. You really need to have a QX and I have had no issues with a metal QX. Cheers ---
**Author:** ![Seasidebees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Seasidebees](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Seasidebees)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 10:16pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/flow-hive-and-queen-excluders/27482/6 "2020-09-12T22:16:42Z")
🐝Thanks Peter. Next week I am going to townand will call in to the bee supply shop and grab a couple of metals ones. Cheers🍙 ---
**Author:** ![Omaru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Omaru](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Omaru)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2020, 6:44pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/flow-hive-and-queen-excluders/27482/7 "2020-09-13T18:44:52Z")
Also a newbee. Why do you say she can only lay drones in the flow super? ---
**Author:** ![Omaru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Omaru](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Omaru)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2020, 6:52pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/flow-hive-and-queen-excluders/27482/8 "2020-09-13T18:52:28Z")
I’m waiting for my first Nucs to arrive and have been studying a lot. Regarding the queen excluder, I have become a Fred Dunn fan. His YouTube Q&A sessions are gold. He runs several flow hives with medium supers above the brood as what he calls a honey bridge. He says he generally doesn’t use excluders. My plan is to do the same as Seaside Bees and before extracting, inspect for brood. If brood is in the flow my understanding is that you just ensure the queen is below, pop on the extractor, wait for the brood to hatch and the bees to clean the frames and keep going. I wonder if the bees need a better quality metal excluder though? ---
**Author:** ![Seasidebees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Seasidebees](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Seasidebees)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2020, 10:20pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/flow-hive-and-queen-excluders/27482/9 "2020-09-13T22:20:17Z")
My understanding is that Cedar has designed the flow frame cells to be to deep for brood laying in general. Maybe drone laying is possible coz bees make a a larger cell for drone babies? ---
**Author:** ![Seasidebees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Seasidebees](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Seasidebees)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2020, 10:57pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/flow-hive-and-queen-excluders/27482/10 "2020-09-13T22:57:21Z")
I think if my colonies won’t accept the metal excluders going forward then I may end up having to leave them off. I’m not wanting to halt bee activitiy in the flows for to long. As they are on a mission at the moment. They are loving their new flows. Each hive has two ideals above the brood box. All ideals are loaded to the brink with honey, the ideals went into winter full and came out full. Not sure if it’s enough to keep the queen away. I’m going to metal exclude and see if the bees will accept the metal ones and continue working their flows. Sounds bad if brood gets in flows. Just out of interest: ( my hybrid frame flow: bees are working the flows, all three first and not the outside timber frames that they need to be drawn. I guess they will do what’s best for themselves) In the meantime I will check out the Utube you suggested.🐠 ---
**Author:** ![Omaru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Omaru](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Omaru)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2020, 11:58pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/flow-hive-and-queen-excluders/27482/11 "2020-09-13T23:58:46Z")
Here is the link to the specific Q&A that discusses queen excluders. [https://youtu.be/pw7HQWv18fc](https://youtu.be/pw7HQWv18fc) ---
**Author:** ![Honeyeater](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/honeyeater/32/22309_2.png) [@Honeyeater](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Honeyeater)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2020, 12:45am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/flow-hive-and-queen-excluders/27482/12 "2020-09-14T00:45:40Z")
> [@Seasidebees](#): > > I think if my colonies won’t accept the metal excluders going forward then I may end up having to leave them off. There is no way I will use a Flow super without a proper queen excluder. Having said that, if you think a free range queen is for you then go for it. Apparently, the manufacturer is quite flexible about the idea himself: > **[Will the queen lay eggs in the Flow Frames?](https://support.honeyflow.com/will-the-queen-lay-eggs-in-the-flow-frames/)** > > The Flow Frame cells are wider and deeper than normal comb cells which means the > queen will not lay worker eggs in them. > > Drone cells are larger than worker cells and occasionally, we have found that a > queen will lay drone eggs in the Flow Frame.... Let us know how it goes. ---
**Author:** ![Rodderick](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/rodderick/32/15174_2.png) [@Rodderick](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Rodderick)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2020, 1:50am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/flow-hive-and-queen-excluders/27482/13 "2020-09-14T01:50:30Z")
> [@Omaru](#): > > If brood is in the flow my understanding is that you just ensure the queen is below, pop on the extractor, wait for the brood to hatch and the bees to clean the frames and keep going. You haven’t considered the cocoons that are left behind from emerging brood, these will prevent the Flow from operating as it was designed, and once those cocoons remain there is a higher chance that the queen will be directed to lay there due to the smell. I have seen brood laid across four boxes. ---
**Author:** ![Dawn\_SD](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/dawn_sd/32/15954_2.png) [@Dawn\_SD](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Dawn_SD)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2020, 1:58am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/flow-hive-and-queen-excluders/27482/14 "2020-09-14T01:58:49Z")
> [@Rodderick](#): > > You haven’t considered the cocoons that are left behind from emerging brood, Plus the drones that may be trapped above the queen excluder… They will die trying to get out, unless you provide an upper entrance/exit. ---
**Author:** ![Rodderick](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/rodderick/32/15174_2.png) [@Rodderick](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Rodderick)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2020, 5:03am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/flow-hive-and-queen-excluders/27482/16 "2020-09-14T05:03:01Z")
No worker brood just drone brood and it wasn’t a pleasant experience, not my hive but a local club member. It was fixed by unwiring the frame to disassemble the segment and then the use of a brissled brush to remove out the cocoons, just glad it wasn’t mine 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![JimM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e57/32.png) [@JimM](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/JimM)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2020, 12:26pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/flow-hive-and-queen-excluders/27482/17 "2020-09-14T12:26:55Z")
> [@Omaru](#): > > Also a newbee. Why do you say she can only lay drones in the flow super? Before she lays an egg the queen measures the diameter of the cell with her front legs. If it is a large cell she will lay an unfertilised drone egg. If its a smaller diameter cell she will lay a fertilised worker egg. ---
**Author:** ![Seasidebees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Seasidebees](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Seasidebees)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 8:06am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/flow-hive-and-queen-excluders/27482/18 "2020-09-15T08:06:40Z")
Ok. I will keep you posted. I hope the colony will like the metal excluders once in place in a resonable amount of time. Otherwise it will be a difficult decision going forward as to know what to do. One small step at a time, I guess.🐳 ---
**Author:** ![Seasidebees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Seasidebees](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Seasidebees)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2020, 10:16pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/flow-hive-and-queen-excluders/27482/19 "2020-10-24T22:16:20Z")
Hi there Just touching base, thanks to everyone for their advice regarding queen excluders. Purchased a nice quality steel one as suggested. Bees couldn’t care less that it was there. Big comparison to their initial reaction when the plastic one was in place. I even wonder now, why Cedar even supplies plastic instead. Also my little Hybrid hive has just had its first harvest. The 3 frames produced 7.6kg of thick amber gold. 🍯 in approximately 6 weeks after adding the super. Awesome. ---
**Author:** ![chau06](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/chau06/32/25515_2.png) [@chau06](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/chau06)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2020, 11:08pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/flow-hive-and-queen-excluders/27482/20 "2020-10-24T23:08:51Z")
I can remember Cedar mentioning in some video his rationale/preference but I don’t remember what it was or which video… Thinking, thinking… maybe because it doesn’t crack/snap when it comes off or maybe because it is easier to separate it from the lower frames if it’s stuck?? I’ll keep looking. Maybe @Freebee2, @Mirabai, or @Cedar himself can chime in? ---
**Author:** ![fffffred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/71c47a/32.png) [@fffffred](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/fffffred)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2020, 3:10am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/flow-hive-and-queen-excluders/27482/21 "2020-10-25T03:10:06Z")
Plastic is gentler on bees. [Next page](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/flow-hive-and-queen-excluders/27482.md?page=2)