# Fragility of Foundationless Comb **URL:** \ **Category:** Beekeeping - Basics\ **Created:** [May 17, 2016, 10:49pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/fragility-of-foundationless-comb/7029 "2016-05-17T22:49:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RBK](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/rbk/32/4134_2.png) [@RBK](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/RBK)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 11:40am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/fragility-of-foundationless-comb/7029/21 "2016-05-19T11:40:27Z")
I am interested to know why there is such an aversion to wiring frames with… wire? Seems to be a lot of alternatives posted with no explanation as to what is wrong with wire? It holds tension (can be easily tightened with a tool too), can be heated to embed foundation if required, isn’t eaten by the bees and will likely outlast the wood in the frame. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Bush](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/michael_bush/32/1024_2.png) [@Michael\_Bush](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Michael_Bush)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 12:57pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/fragility-of-foundationless-comb/7029/22 "2016-05-19T12:57:07Z")
> [@RBK](#): > > I am interested to know why there is such an aversion to wiring frames with… wire? It is always in my way when I want to cut it up for comb honey (if it’s soft and white I want to) or if I want to cut out queen cells. I don’t miss the wire… nothing wrong with wiring them if you like, but whether it’s wired foundation or wired foundationless it’s always getting in my way. ---
**Author:** ![RBK](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/rbk/32/4134_2.png) [@RBK](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/RBK)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 2:06am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/fragility-of-foundationless-comb/7029/23 "2016-05-20T02:06:27Z")
My point isn’t about wiring and not wiring, it’s that when the time comes to require reinforcement, why the elaborate alternatives when wire works? Can someone give an example of why I would use fishing line over traditional wire? ---
**Author:** ![JeffH](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/jeffh/32/7192_2.png) [@JeffH](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/JeffH)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 2:43am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/fragility-of-foundationless-comb/7029/24 "2016-05-20T02:43:02Z")
G’day RBK, a lot of people have the idea that wax foundation is contaminated. That’s why they go for foundationless frames. Also that is one of the selling points of TBH’s. ‘Your not using contaminated wax’. They use fishing line instead of wire. I think fishing line with a foundationless frame is better than nothing at all… Me, I’m a fan of wire & wax foundation. Your giving the bees something back that they produced themselves, plus if they want to chew some out for added airflow or to make some drone comb, they can. ---
**Author:** ![adagna](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/adagna/32/31728_2.png) [@adagna](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/adagna)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 5:10am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/fragility-of-foundationless-comb/7029/25 "2016-05-20T05:10:51Z")
I think cost and ease of installation seem to be the biggest argument for fishing line. Also it can be cut out easier if necessary. For a hobbiest these arguments make less impact since you are prepping only a few frames. But if you have hundreds of frames to do it can add up. ---
**Author:** ![fishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/839c29/32.png) [@fishman](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/fishman)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 11:33am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/fragility-of-foundationless-comb/7029/26 "2016-05-20T11:33:57Z")
thanks for showing this video of the proper technique. i read a description of how to properly turn but it was different to visualize. a bit like twirling a baton, yes? going to practice with an empty frame. ---
**Author:** ![sara](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/sara/32/696_2.png) [@sara](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/sara)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 1:09am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/fragility-of-foundationless-comb/7029/27 "2016-05-26T01:09:01Z")
I had to clean up a bit of brace comb the other day and took this shot when I installed the girls this was a bare deep frame. They have drawn it recently and today on a 72° day I was able to handle it with a bit of care. ![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/honeyflow/original/2X/0/0e4e25a16db8d875667182073f02f940196dfae5.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Rmcpb](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/rmcpb/32/3147_2.png) [@Rmcpb](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Rmcpb)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 8:24am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/fragility-of-foundationless-comb/7029/28 "2016-05-26T08:24:54Z")
Just keep it on axis. ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_Nickel](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/gerald_nickel/32/1910_2.png) [@Gerald\_Nickel](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Gerald_Nickel)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 4:39am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/fragility-of-foundationless-comb/7029/29 "2016-05-27T04:39:45Z")
Hi all. Love this forum for so many mind thots n sets and still able to be helpful n mindful of others choices n ideas in life. Moving thru my 70’s now …I’ve been lucky n fairly healthy and my wife too. But now both our bodies have some issues. I’ve lived thru the era of DDT’s n 24D’s, Mẻcury, Lead in everything n PCB’s, I’m still alive pasing thru hitch with exposure to the Agent Orange, Green, Purple n so on … I was told eggs, salt, real butter, sugar we’re not healthy for us (moderation is my motto not ridding these tasty add-ons from my diet. I do not use Roundups, Orthenes , other systemic n nerve reacting products. I try to grow a small garden, enact canning n preserving a % of my own foods. But alas my small 40 by 65 garden can not grow it all. I hope to have a proper frame rotation plan in place to keep in frame/wax to a minimum … I’m glad for one my wife did not put this plan in action n rotate me out of her life. 😃😃😃. Something’s are better kept in place if you can. As for my hives … Out of habit n maybe ignorance, n/or pride I chose 10 frame deeps for my brood n first super … Above that i going with either mediums n/or shallows for now. I am hoping as I age more I will still be around to maybe slowly n progressively move over to 8 frame mediums n less weigh n ease for this ole BODY. Gerald ---
**Author:** ![AngoraAngy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/angoraangy/32/2534_2.png) [@AngoraAngy](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/AngoraAngy)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 6:39pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/fragility-of-foundationless-comb/7029/30 "2016-05-27T18:39:47Z")
![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/honeyflow/original/2X/c/cf8e6f97c18f6feb3e480f8e5ecfc548c0505276.jpg) ![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/honeyflow/original/2X/2/23a9c013e4ddfc3930c9c4483359867a17f35afc.jpg) (Nope, I did not hold the frame uside down, the pic is turned over ;)) They do make use of the wires. This freshly drawn comb is steady as the river 😉 I found the building bees clustering from the top bar down around the wires, keeping hold of the wire while I turned the frame. So far all natural comb is straight inside the frame, making me confident that wiring the frame is both good for stability and straightness. ---
**Author:** ![Brian\_tx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@Brian\_tx](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Brian_tx)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/fragility-of-foundationless-comb/7029/31 "2016-06-07T17:45:31Z")
Yup…on my first check last Friday mine was pretty similar to your pic on 3 of the frames…I handled them with great care so I could hold them up to show the wife. Being very careful (obviously fragile) I was able to get the 2 I picked up out and in with no problems. ---
**Author:** ![bumblebee](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/bumblebee/32/5416_2.png) [@bumblebee](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/bumblebee)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/fragility-of-foundationless-comb/7029/32 "2016-08-01T18:30:22Z")
Hi! I need help…urgent I’m all new to beekeeping and followed the suggestion here and started 10 days ago with a package and foundationless frames. I even shaped the edges of the top bars slightly round and put them tightly together In the hive. No spaces between the Hoffman frames. We are at the end of the flow season In late summer here in Germany so I had to feed with a sugar water/honey mixture in a frame feeder as many do here. i left them in peace for 9 days and today I opened the hive for inspection and varroa control (wanted to spray Oxalic acid 2,1%). Now I got this result: they built the combs diagonally over all frames. They even filled the feeder with comb. When I gently (really gently!) tried to separate the frames the whole combs fell down and buried a lot of the bees in sticky sugar syrup. It was an immense mess and I had to take out most of the comb material killing more and more bees. I have no clue if the queen survived this and I’m totally shocked. In the videos it looks so easy that they build the combs straight and neat and all the hints what to do if eventually crsscombing accures are totally useless in such a sitatuation. There is nothing to repair any more or to fix in the frames. What shall I do now? Any suggestions how I can switch to foundet frames. P.s. It is not hot at all here in the moment average 20 degrees Celsius. For a first try I put all the mess in a bucket and placed it in a second box above the brood. They may reuse it if they survive. Was that right? ![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/honeyflow/original/2X/0/0b1a8ecac734b2ba8cb962024c6e388922da21a1.jpeg) ![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/honeyflow/original/2X/9/9c5905cadefa41a6ba6ab35f8be833967b031426.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Dawn\_SD](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/dawn_sd/32/15954_2.png) [@Dawn\_SD](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Dawn_SD)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 6:43pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/fragility-of-foundationless-comb/7029/33 "2016-08-01T18:43:35Z")
> [@bumblebee](#): > > For a first try I put all the mess in a bucket and placed it in a second box above the brood. They may reuse it if they survive. Was that right? They won’t reuse it in that state, but they may try to build on it. You need to fix it back into the frames with rubber bands, like this post shows: > [@Caught a birdhouse swarm, hived it, left it alone, and now the bees are in the wrong place](http://forum.honeyflow.com/t/caught-a-birdhouse-swarm-hived-it-left-it-alone-and-now-the-bees-are-in-the-wrong-place/7857/3): > > As you have already worked out, they consider the birdhouse to be their hive/home. They will not leave it willingly. If you put it inside a bigger box, they will just try to fill up the gaps with comb again but they will keep using the birdhouse. You cannot stop them from doing that, they are just being normal bees! blush I am worried that you will end up with a mess if you do that. I would suggest a cut-out instead. Take the comb from the inner cover and rubber band it into the empty frame… > [@bumblebee](#): > > Now I got this result: they built the combs diagonally over all frames Is your hive absolutely level? If not, they may have trouble building straight comb, and they will pick the direction that best allows them to do that. > [@bumblebee](#): > > I opened the hive for inspection and varroa control If you had a package (loose bees and a queen with no comb or brood), you probably won’t need to treat right away, because you will have a natural “brood gap” while they build comb, stores and queen finally starts laying. I would let them get established first, because even oxalic acid is hard on the bees. ---
**Author:** ![bumblebee](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/bumblebee/32/5416_2.png) [@bumblebee](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/bumblebee)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 7:11pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/fragility-of-foundationless-comb/7029/34 "2016-08-01T19:11:18Z")
Hi Dawn Thanks for your fast reply: so I will remove the messed combs tomorrow. What I didn’t point out: there are some combs left in the hive. About three from six Two big an a small have collapsed. Unfortunaltely the longest ones in the middle (queen?). I leveld the hive with great care (left to right). On the back- front axis they are of course sloping to the back as the system is laid out. But I will check if something has sunken in. It was quite rainy last week. Problem is: the combs are so soft, that I almost can’t hold them without bending over my fingers. does it make sense to fix the then real small parts which I can handle? Can it be that I fed them to much Anything else I can do to correct the problem? ---
**Author:** ![Dawn\_SD](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/dawn_sd/32/15954_2.png) [@Dawn\_SD](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Dawn_SD)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 7:25pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/fragility-of-foundationless-comb/7029/35 "2016-08-01T19:25:17Z")
> [@bumblebee](#): > > Unfortunaltely the longest ones in the middle (queen?). It would be reasonable to think the queen is there, but with a new colony you never can tell. > [@bumblebee](#): > > I leveld the hive with great care (left to right) That is what really matters, front to back is less important. However, I think it is great that you are going to check again - hives have a habit of re-leveling (unleveling) themselves in my apiary… 😊 > [@bumblebee](#): > > Problem is: the combs are so soft, that I almost can’t hold them without bending over my fingers When that happens, try to manipulate the comb later in the day when it is cooler. Some people also “pre-wire” the comb with fishing line or fine wire, then press the comb into it. Try to make sure the comb stays upright, with approximately the same upslope angle in the frame as that it had in the hive - that means that honey does not run out when the bees put it into the cells. > [@bumblebee](#): > > does it make sense to fix the then real small parts which I can handle? If it is much smaller than the palm of your hand, it probably is not worth trying. > [@bumblebee](#): > > Can it be that I fed them to muchAnything else I can do to correct the problem? I don’t think you fed them too much. That would not cause this problem. If there is any comb attached to the remaining 3 frames, try to straighten it leaving as much attached as possible, and then reinforce with rubber bands if needed to hold it straight. It really helps to have 2 people when rubber banding - it is very hard to do it solo, you need at least one more hand! If you hold the comb vertical (let it hang down), you will find it much easier not to break it, but you will need a second person to help put it back into the frames if you do that. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![bumblebee](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/bumblebee/32/5416_2.png) [@bumblebee](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/bumblebee)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/fragility-of-foundationless-comb/7029/36 "2016-08-05T18:35:19Z")
Hi all, Coming back from the hive today. Obviously the damage was less then I thought. The bees happily build on on their diagonal combs 🕶 I decided to leave it like they want over the winter. There is no need for a proper brood inspection in that time. I added now two foundation frames to the side and look for it after a few days if they start to use them. I checke also if the hive is still levelled well: and it is! The only explanation I have is that I used a frame feeder from the beginning and it seems, that they wanted to build their combs in a right angle to this. That makes some sense to me, because they can reach the feeder much easier as when it is parallel to their combs. The feeder is still full of comb and the question is, what should I do with this? Taking it out and remove the combs an refill it with sugar syrup or adding another feeder from above and just leave them alone with it? My plan is to reorganise everything next year when I have to add a second brood box anyway. I would put it under the old one ( right?). Then, when I am sure that the queen is in the other brood box I would put an excluder between and wait until the brood has run out on the old box. Then taking it away and try to fix the mess. I have to take out four frames together to rescue the combs. Is that a good plan? Please tell me… There I s one thing I learned from this and it would be great if there is a warning somewhere: never touch a frame until it is build completely. No matter if it looks right or wrong. You can only destroy the bees work with that. Ok, there are some hints in this forum, but not in the official videos from flow. [Previous page](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/fragility-of-foundationless-comb/7029.md?page=1)