Honey Flooding Extraction

Hi Bruce,
Do you have an issue with your Flow frames? We are here to help if this is the case, some of us have at times experienced some leakage which has been more to do with the internal temperature at harvest time, the viscosity of the honey and the thin capping, subsequent harvests usually clear up any initial leakage issues.

Hi Bruce,

I work for Flow as the Marketing Manager and just wanted to chime in here. Firstly, we want to make sure all customers have the support to work out any issues and you can expect a call this week to go over your leaking issues.

As for the Bizcarro patent, your assertion that Cedar and Stuart copied it is not the reality of the situation.

The Bizcarro patent uses a very different mechanism to the Flow Frame and as it is laid out is supposed to function by removing the “matrix wall”. The Flow Frame mechanism splits the entire cell structure to create channels rather than removing the wall. Cedar and Stuart were unaware of the Bizcarro patent until I alerted them to it based on questions from a Spanish blogger during the 2015 crowdfunding launch.

Cedar told me he tested something similar to the Bizcarro method in the early days of development but due to the viscosity of honey, this was not an effective harvesting method and the idea was abandoned.

There have also been people claiming it’s impossible that Cedar and Stuart were unaware of the patent as they would have come across it during R&D. This is incorrect too, please remember until the crowdfunding launch Flow was not a functional business, it was literally just Cedar and Stuart developing the product in a tin shed and testing in their apiary. There was no formal R&D program or research staff, just two passionate beekeepers with an aptitude for engineering and creative thinking following their instincts and trial results.

Ultimately you will have to make up your own mind about the version of events you want to believe, but I wanted to set the record straight from my end.

Best Wishes

Saadi

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Hi All,

A little bit of spillage in the hive is relatively normal but a lot isn’t. If you are getting a lot of spillage while harvesting, too much for the bees to clean up, please write to me at info@honeyflow.com so I can help troubleshoot. Or call or email here: https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/honey-spillage/12534

A little bit of spillage that falls down onto the coreflute slider can be cleaned up by the bees as long as the slider is in the top position. Spills in the hive isn’t new to beekeeping, I’ve made many a sticky mess manipulating traditional frames in the past.

There are a lot of variables, slope of hive in both directions, how far out the cells have been drawn, capped or not, uncapped or empty cells at bottom of frame, honey viscosity, temperature of the wax, thickness of the wax and capping, and more. One of our experienced beekeepers on our team had some honey spill out the front of his flow hive recently, I asked him to collect as much data as he could with measurements and photos. It turns out the hive was sloped the wrong way. It’s not always obvious.

If you are concerned that you might get spillage, try one or two frames first to see. If you are having trouble with spillage please contact me.

Best regards,

Cedar

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Good Morning and thank you for your response to my problem. As stated in my previous inquiry I am having a problem with flooding during extraction to the point that I remove each flow frame and extract it separately which was not your original design intent. I have not been able to extract at the hive as you have demonstrated. I previously provided pictures to your team of my extraction set up and a tray beneath the frame to capture the flooding from the wax capping. I hope that these pictures were helpful. The amount of flooding captured in the tray is about 140 ml per frame. I extract each frame separately and then put the frame out for the bees to clean up before I wrap it, freeze each frame for 48 hours and store for winter. There is wax left on the frames. I have tried variations on frame slope as well as partial opening in quarters of each frame during extraction. I’m wondering about a frame design modification along the bottom of the frame which might capture the flow from the outside of the frame and channel it back into the trough. I’m hoping that with more wax buildup on frames this problem solves itself. I do appreciate your follow up on this problem and will continue to follow the forum. Best wishes on your continued success.

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@Cedar I had lost quite a bit of honey, noticing in pouring out bottom of hive and only recently thought to see why on the site. I took a frame out and did this in the house on a pan and could see the problem. if the bottom cell was made to catch the flow down the outside of the caps, rather than be another honeyed cell, and direct it back to the drain tube…
I’m sure you’ve thought of this already. But, in case you hadn’t.
great idea the whole concept, even if Flowhive 1.0 needs a tweak or two…
Thanks
here’s video of the least troublesome frame harverst.

@Forum_Support

[][flowharvest]()

If you upload the video the YouTube, you can post the link to it and it will be available on the Forum. :blush:

Hi Ronald. When I’ve had a nice full frame (90% capped) and you crack it for harvesting, I’ve seen some of what you describe if the honey is just not able to get out the harvesting tube fast enough (especially if the honey is extra viscous). I can’t remember where I read it, but someone said the solution they used was to partially crack the frame, i.e. put the key say half way and turn it and let that honey get going and when ready slide the key in the rest of the way and turn it again to get the last half of the frame. Perhaps this might help you?

Thank you for your ideas. I have tried the method that you mention but only in quarters rather then half. I watch to see that the tube does not seal off and create a vacuum. Cedar said that a littleflooding is acceptable but I lost about 140 ml per frame. If you try to harvest all the frames at the same time it would be quite a mess on the bees. I have been doing bench harvesting where I can observe, record, measure and capture the flooding into a lunch tray. I will probably build a special bench harvesting device to hold the frames for next year. My frames are new frames. I am hoping that one year of wax buildup may improve the situation. I will be providing future feedback on my findings.

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I am not sure if you are referring me to a UTUBE video or asking me to post a video? I do not have any video for this year, only stills. I will work on a harvest structure for pairs of frames where I can more clearly see and record what is happening.

Hi Ronald,

I have just got this information from my manager in relation to harvesting with the frames outside of the hive.
I thought I better post it for you and other Flow hivers who are removing their Flow Frames from the hive to harvest.
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Removing Flow Frames from the hive, changes the temperature of the both the honey and the wax. Within the hive generally wax is malleable and honey is less viscous so harvesting has little impact within the hive. We have seen that with more brittle wax and viscous honey capping can split and harvests can be slower increasing possible leakage.

To minimize leaking you will need to harvest once the Flow Frame is completely full, and capped. What occurs if the Flow Frame is not completely capped, opening the Flow Frames allows for the honey to flow downwards, this can back up depending on viscosity or if the honey trough becomes full. With excess leaking out of open cells, and down the face of the frame following the contour of the Flow Frame to drip from the underside of the honey trough. The uncapped cells can also weaken the capping of cells in the same row creating a tear point in the capping as the Flow Frame is opened. Depending on how full the cells are beneath the capping, leaking can occur.

A Flow Frame that is completely capped can be harvested in full, however we advise that it is best to be sure. There are multiple ways to harvest. Harvesting in steps, ensures the honey trough doesn’t become full, so it cant over flow, if there are uncapped cells above. Also if leaking does occur it is is more manageable by the bees and you are able to notice earlier and cease harvesting to better monitor what is occurring.

Usually this leakage is less than a few tablespoons per frame in which case the bees will mop it up and re-store it. The honey is not wasted although you didn’t get that extra honey in your jar.

Because leakage is a risk on the first harvest we recommend harvesting one frame at a time rather than doing them all at once. This is just in case quite a few frames leak in which case the bees might not be able to keep up with all the honey to be mopped up. You can harvest one or two frames per each half hour if you like or spread the harvest out over several days. The flexibility of harvesting is one of the advantages of Flow frames.

You may like to go through these checkpoints just to ensure you have minimised the possibility of leaking.

Check points:

Have you determined that the Flow frames have been capped? The bees will generally cap their honeycomb from the centre outwards to the edges. The edges and the base may be the last parts of the comb to be sealed, but of course the frames are much less likely to leak if all the cells along the base are capped.

We designed the Flow frame cells to be capped well out from the moving parts within the comb. However, particularly on the first fill, the bees sometimes make concave capping which is much more likely to be ruptured with the movement of the matrix during harvest. We do recommend that you open the hive (with smoker and protective gear) and lift out the Flow frames for inspection so that you get to know what that end-view window is telling you. With this experience, after a while, the end view will tell you what is happening within the hive.

Is the hive tilted backwards and at the right angle? (so the honey flows readily to the inserted tubes and quickly out of the hive)

Are the tubes inserted with the tag (or tongue) end pushed into the hole so that the tag actually inserts into the Honey Leak Back Gap at the base of the hole? (If this is not done then honey can leak out through the join of the tube to the hole.)

Can the container breathe? Some people attach plastic tubing to the honey tube and then insert this tubing into a hole in the lid of a jar or container. If this is done it is important not to form an airlock which would prevent the honey from flowing into the container. A loose lid or several small 1mm holes in the lid would work to ensure air can escape as the honey fills the jar.

Do the tubes have a similar slope (or more) to the hive? This is to make sure that the honey does not back-up in the tubes as it leaves the hive.

Is the corflute slider in the top-slot position? The slider needs to be pushed up against the mesh (the floor of the hive) so that the bees can lick up any spills. When the slider is in the bottom slot the bees cannot reach it and any leakage flows out of the back of the hive much more readily which can be quite messy.

I would also recommend that you double check our harvesting checklist to ensure that all of these steps have been followed.

http://www.honeyflow.com/resources/harvesting-checklist/p/197

If you have a similar experience harvesting your next Flow frame, I would recommend keeping the frame in the harvesting position (90 degrees down in the bottom slot) and leaving the frame for 24 hours so that the bees can clean up the frame.

After this time frame please remove the frame from the hive and send through some photographs to us so that we can double check that there are no manufacturing issues with your frame.

I hope this information has been helpful.

I know you said you have tried most of the points above. Maybe the only difference was taking the Flow Frames out of the hive - and this in the end caused more of a problem for the leaking.

:honeybee:

p.s. thanks for your patience while we try and work out the best solution for you.

Neither, I was quoting @dtbdc’s question, and lack of video attached to his post, although he referenced a video. It wasn’t aimed at you at all. :wink:

Thank you for your in depth response to my inquiry. I will not be able to harvest again until next August. I will save this correspondence as a checklist and provide whatever additional information about my experience at that time. Your explanation provided additional information about the mechanics of the flow frame.

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You’re welcome :slight_smile:

I’m glad it has helped provide more information about the Flow Frames.

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Hi Ronald,

Firstly I apologise for taking so long to respond to your request.

Attached are some photos. Internally where the frame goes is 310mm x 460mm with the front legs 480mm and the back legs 530mm high. This gives an angle of 6 - to 6.5°. The legs are 40mm square pine and the rectangle frame is 140mm x 19mm pine. This is designed to harvest 2 frames into 2 x 2 litre jars. To capture the spillage I use a disposable aluminium baking tray that I reuse. I have had to shape it a little bit to capture the entire frame as I could not find a tray big enough where I live.

I hope this helps. If you have any more questions I am happy to help.

Regards

Heron.

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Thank you. How much flooding do you get on a frame? I observe that the honey seems to emerge from unsealed or ruptured cappings at the bottom of the frame. When the frames are cracked open pressure from the honey above broken cappings is forced out. This occurs in the lower quarter of the frame. I do not observe leakage above the lower quarter.

Another thing to mention is that when you take the Flow Frames out of the hive, they are able to bend more.
When you leave the Flow Frames inside the Flow Super - all the Flow Frames remain together in the middle of the hive, and are less likely to bend.
When the Flow Frames bend this may lead to more leaking.

I have my own flow hive now. It came with honey ready to harvest. We put the honey super on the dining room table after rinsing the rancid honey out of the channels in order to harvest the honey. The Sunshine Coast honey doesn’t appear to be compatible with flow frames. We got a LOT of flooding.

One thing that DID concern me was the amount of flexing of the flow frames while attempting to open & close the frames. The flexing was that bad, that the frame I was trying to crack open pushed against the neighboring frame, to the point of moving the neighboring frame.

I don’t recall anyone raising this issue. If I didn’t have all of the frames together in the honey super with the crown cover removed, I wouldn’t have noticed it. I would be concerned about bee deaths with all of the flexing.
@Forum_Support

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Hi Jeff, welcome to the Flow owners’ club :wink: Took you long enough! About the flexing, I wonder if the wires around the frames were properly tightened? Many sets including mine came with not quite enough tension & I had to pop off the wires & add twists. Easier to do before the bees have had at them! Also, the super box itself may have needed shimming up to prevent too much movement of frames, perhaps…

About the rancid honey in the channels, how odd…apparently some has collected in them and the bees didn’t clean it up as expected?

Please take these expert questions with a big grain of salt, as my own frames have yet to be fully drawn and filled by the bees/harvested by me :flushed:

Hi Jeff - did you inspect the Flow frames to see if they were capped prior to harvesting? :grin:

sorry mate…I couldn’t help myself…

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