I need advice after 1st frame inspection

Nothing wrong with moving an unbuilt frame in one position as you have done George, they will build out the frame and hopefully it will be used for brood, if not then they have been given the option without them having to move honey about. It is best to cycle out brood frames after a couple of seasons even when everything is good in the hive.
Cheers

Are you sure about this Peter? If I am understanding correctly, George has a new nuc. He placed empty frames between the drawn frames of the new nuc to fill the brood box.

I never came across this advice and I would be interested to know why this is a good idea. The way I know it is transfer the existing frames to the middle of the broodbox in the same order and orientation as they were in the nuc box, then put the empty frames on each side.

@Zzz the way Iā€™ve interpreted what @George_Perth has done and @Peter48ā€™s comments is essentially checker boarding, which is a common approach to putting new empty frames in (with or without foundation starters). That being said, I tend to agree with your perspective and comment, although it does depend on climate.

You are correct (my opinion) in that it is better to keep the frames from a Nuc clustered together to ensure they stay warm. Given @George_Perth probably had a 4 frame Nuc from BW he would have probably been better keeping the frames together and putting empty frames either side. HOWEVER, the weather has been quite warm and @George_Perth was establishing his hive during some very hot weather. Consequently, internal temperature was less of a concern.

The primary issue in this that I see from spacing/checker boarding frames from a 4 frame Nuc is the risk of pests, as you physically increase the space the bees need to simultaneously heat, defend, and care. HOWEVER, where @George_Perth lives the biggest pest issues are likely going to be wax moth and ants. Thankfully for him the time of year to be establishing a hive is good and there was a good nectar flow recently, so his colony had a good chance to succeed. The ants are another matterā€¦but no matter how many bees he has or how he spaces the frames it wonā€™t address issues with ants.

As an aside, when I got my Nuc a few years ago from BW I kept the two frames of all brood together, put empty frames either side, put the two frames of honey+pollen on the other side of the empty frames and then put empty frames on the outside. This enabled the bees to focus on the brood temperature and I took a chance with wax moth in the honey frames. I started the establishment of my hive in a February but never installed the Super until the first spring - I really kept the hive packed down and bursting at the seams.

EDIT: Now that my hive is established I checker board the introduction of new empty frames when Iā€™m cycling frames each season

3 Likes

@George_Perth it really depends on what you want to do and how your hive is performing. When I first established my hive with a Nuc from BW a few years ago it was around the same time as you (February). If memory is correct, I didnā€™t put a Super on until the first spring (some 5-6mths later). Iā€™d need to go check other notes/photos to confirm for certainā€¦

I donā€™t think youā€™re likely to get another strong nectar flow around your area. You will have a reasonable supply of nectar and pollen between now and spring but I doubt it will be a strong enough flow to fill a flow super for harvest, especially as bees have a habit of not filling one flow frame at a time. It would be great if you proved me wrong though :slight_smile:

My recommendation would be to avoid putting the super on and focus on letting the colony build up strength. Youā€™d probably gain more from doing weekly or fortnightly inspections (as much as they disrupt the colony) and seeing how they grow and what changes in the coming weeks (i.e. brood distribution, honey stores, pollen stores, patterns etc). That being said, if you really do think your hive is already bursting at the seams and at risk of wanting to swarm than putting a Super on and cycling those honey frames you showed would help.

Personally, Iā€™ve still got a hybrid and full flow super on my hive but Iā€™ve changed their order for how they sit in preparation for winter (hybrid now on-top of the brood). The flow frames in the hybrid super were harvestable on my last inspection but because they werenā€™t capped I just left them (I harvest with the frames in place and if they arenā€™t capped you can get issues with flooding). Iā€™ll harvest 2 of the 3, maybe all 3, flow frames in the hybrid in late April and at the same time Iā€™ll remove the full flow super. Iā€™ll do another inspection or two in May and then pack it down for winter.

Iā€™m content with the full flow super having honey with a moisture content that is too high as we will just use it for cooking - thatā€™s partly why Iā€™ve left it on (better to use that than honey thatā€™s readyā€¦).

Hopefully the above makes senseā€¦

Once the entire Covid-19 situation settles down I will actually get in touch for a visit.

1 Like

Iā€™m sure @Zzz, it is called checker boarding and I have used it for 47 years to get the bees to build out frames with comb as in this situation that George has. The closer you put a frame to the brood the bees are more inclined to work on building comb on it. I think George has the bees in a full sized hive now so moving the unused frame in one position isnā€™t breaking up the brood cluster.
Cheers

1 Like

Thank you very much Alan for your lengthy reply.

I knew about checkerboarding, but was under the impression that it is mainly used as a swarm prevention technique.

As George has discussed and asked advice about adding the super the hive is no longer a nuc and so I based my advice on that. Your advise to George makes sense.
Iā€™m a little envious that you have a cooler Winter climate, It is a busy period for me with heaps of honey production but I also enjoy wearing my suit and not sweating up and dehydrating. Summer here is pure hell for a bee keeper. :grin: :grin:
Cheers Alan.

@Zzz most people use checker boarding, or at least discuss it, in relation to swarm prevention. Thatā€™s typically my driver too when Iā€™m cycling frames. However, checker boarding when putting new frames into a hive helps minimise the chances of burr or crazy comb problems as thereā€™s a ā€˜containment boundaryā€™ the bees keep within to maintain bee space (note that it doesnā€™t eliminate burr/crazy comb, it just minimise it).

3 Likes

@SnowflakeHoney, @Zzz, @Peter48
Thank you all for your valuable comments. Iā€™m happy with my decision to swap the empty frame with the previous outside frame, (pictures). When I looked today the bees had actually started building comb on the empty frame. I am going to just leave the brood hive without anything else and do a fortnightly frame inspection as @SnowflakeHoney suggested. I think that makes sense. There seems to be nectar and pollen around, I have notice the comb cells filling with honey but not yet capped and the weather is likely to stay reasonably warm till around May-June.
The area around here are all 1 acre blocks and quite a few still have flowering gardens.
Hopefully we will remain free of Covid-19, when that is behind us we can look at getting together. Thanks for that Alan.
Cheers, G

1 Like

@George_Perth In a few months youā€™re going to discover youā€™ve got more citrus trees around you than you probably realisedā€¦I know I did!

And yes, living in the suburbs thereā€™s a good mix of bush, trees, and gardens. Your bees are unlikely to suffer the same dearths others do out in the hills. Not that it wonā€™t happen but itā€™s a lower likelihood and when it does occur it wonā€™t usually last as long.

1 Like

Did this frame come with the nuc? If thatā€™s the case, it should not have been included with a nuc in my opinion. It should have the honey extracted out of it before replacing the comb with fresh foundation. My mentor agrees with me.

1 Like

Hi Jeff, Yes that was one of the nuc frames.
I have bought a nuc from BW before and have never had a problem. At least the bees will have honey through winter. Cheers, G

1 Like

A blessing and a curse. Itā€™s all well and good having fruit trees in the back yard but if the neighbours in the area donā€™t pick up their fruit and let it rot on the ground then fruit fly will run rampant like it does here. So bad now I get fruit fly in the lemons. :rage: but I digress.
Checker boarding can be a good tool for the right colony, right time and right reason. Sounds like it is working for George and thatā€™s great the three reasons have aligned.
The frame of honey (and pollen) is wet capped which, i think, makes it look different from the more commonly seen, and advertised, dry capped honey which seems to be the base of Georgeā€™s concern.

1 Like

Hi George, yeah well as long as new beekeepers keep accepting rubbishy frames like that, I guess theyā€™ll keep on supplying them. It gives new beekeepers the wrong message, the message that frames like that are normal in the brood box. They should be setting a higher standard than that.

I would have cycled the comb out of that frame a long time ago. I certainly wouldnā€™t have included it with a nuc I sold.

1 Like

Strongly agree. George said he bought it from BW, which I assume is BeeWise.

These guys are supposed to be the best in WA for nucs but I personally hate them. They prioritise commercial beekeepers and snub amateurs. Fair enough but they shouldnā€™t sell their inferior stock to unsuspecting new beekeeepers.

I had two nucs on order from them and when I drove all the way to his shop for a chat, and told him Iā€™m an amateur starting out with Flowhives, he crossed my name from his list of nucs on order in front of me. He hates Flow Hives and found him very unhelpful.

He also doesnā€™t refund for the return of nuc boxes like others, instead he gives store credit last time I checked, which is petty.

Can you elaborate on that so others less knowledgable like myself will learn something please?

Hi Jeff, problem is, when buying a nuc, you cannot open the box and check it before you pay so you have to trust the bee trader to do the right thing.
Even after you take the nuc home and then check it the next day and find a problem, how do you get the bees back in the box to take it back to the bee trader ?
And when you get there, then what ?
Or is there another solution ?
Cheers, G

George, you call him and let him know. Take a photo and send it to him. See what he comes up with. He should replace it though now it is too late. But I still tell him if it was meā€¦ but then I do like an argument :slight_smile:

Reminds me of this old Monty Python sketch:

3 Likes

My favorite Monty Python sketch.

1 Like