# Seemingly Queenless Hive- End of Autumn what to do? Advice please? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Bee Chat\ **Created:** [May 15, 2017, 5:36am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/seemingly-queenless-hive-end-of-autumn-what-to-do-advice-please/11231 "2017-05-15T05:36:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dan2](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/dan2/32/10463_2.png) [@Dan2](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Dan2)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 7:10am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/seemingly-queenless-hive-end-of-autumn-what-to-do-advice-please/11231/21 "2017-05-17T07:10:53Z")
Jack - I’m just still a little caught up in the fact that no queen cells were made with from the frames you put in… as you say, with all those other bees on the frames it is pretty hard to spot the queen. Surely she is there otherwise why wouldn’t they have made emergency queen cells? How many frames did you end up giving them? Edit: They don’t seem overly interested in her. They almost seem as interested in the tops of the adjacent frames! ---
**Author:** ![Semaphore](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/semaphore/32/14994_2.png) [@Semaphore](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Semaphore)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 7:46am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/seemingly-queenless-hive-end-of-autumn-what-to-do-advice-please/11231/22 "2017-05-17T07:46:25Z")
I am too- I am confused… But for me the most notable thing about this hive is the complete absence of any brood at all. I have looked back on my records and I transferred the bees to the long hive on the 9th of April. At that time the donor hive consisted of 10 frames: however I was suprised to find almost 7 of them complete honey and only three with brood- and even them with honey at the extremities. When I transferred them- I didn’t see the queen. Then I inspected on the the 7th May- and looked carefully at every frame- I did not see the queen- and the only brood was about 20 capped drone cells on one face of one frame. I am absolutely sure there was no other brood whatsoever. I think Jeff was right: that the drone brood was likely the very last of the brood to hatch out that my queen had laid- which means the queen last laid (at the most) 24 days before… Which means the queen survived the transfer to the long hive- but only laid eggs for 5 days or less after that. I added a frame of brood and inspected again on the 11th- after 4 days the bees had made no signs of using the brood frame to make emergency queens- and the rest of the hive was devoid of any brood whatsoever. Today when I checked again no brood at all- and I didn’t see any queen. Plenty of fresh nectar, pollen, open comb, fully capped honeycomb- and bees on covering every frame… Today being the 17th- it seems certain that no queen has laid eggs for around 32 days. Seems to me there are 3 possibilities: 1. queenless 2. virgin/fresh mated queen in residence 3. queen ‘gone off the lay’ for 30+ days Given I inspected all frames a total of 3 times and never saw a queen- I am hoping it’s as simple as it seems: they are queenless and will take this new Italian queen readily. But given I have seen no signs of attempts to make queens by the bees- and their calm enough temperament- I’m not so sure. Now I am wondering what’s going on in the hive: I think I will have to take a peek tomorrow to see if they have/are balling her- or what’s happening. I wonder if she could survive a night in the hive in that cage if the colony is against her? Can they actually sting her right through the gaps in the cage- or if they balled her- would they suffocate/cook her by sheer ill will? She has a little hidey area at the end of the cage… would be an awful night though I imagine. If I find that to be the case and she survives I guess I’ll rescue her and requeen my other hive… ---
**Author:** ![Dawn\_SD](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/dawn_sd/32/15954_2.png) [@Dawn\_SD](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Dawn_SD)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 9:08am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/seemingly-queenless-hive-end-of-autumn-what-to-do-advice-please/11231/23 "2017-05-17T09:08:50Z")
Thank you for the overview of events. It was very helpful for the perspective. I am inclined to agree with you, you lost the queen during the transfer to the long hive. I am amazed that you don’t seem to have any laying workers, though. Very lucky on that front! 😄 I like your plan. If there were no attendants in the cage, the queen will gradually starve, so you did the right thing getting her into the hive. If they really didn’t like her, they would likely try to ball the cage, but it may take a while (30 mins or more) to recruit enough bees to do that, and it is still hard for them. However, I have seen balls the size of a small grapefruit, so if they really want to, they can do it. When she is loose, they can ball her more easily and quickly, because they don’t have to heat such a large space. ---
**Author:** ![JeffH](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/jeffh/32/7192_2.png) [@JeffH](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/JeffH)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 10:03am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/seemingly-queenless-hive-end-of-autumn-what-to-do-advice-please/11231/24 "2017-05-17T10:03:17Z")
Hi Jack, See how the new queen goes. If the colony kills her, just give them another frame of brood & follow my previous advice. Good luck with that, cheers ---
**Author:** ![Dee](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/dee/32/5840_2.png) [@Dee](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Dee)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 11:09am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/seemingly-queenless-hive-end-of-autumn-what-to-do-advice-please/11231/25 "2017-05-17T11:09:20Z")
Fingers crossed 🤞 … ---
**Author:** ![Semaphore](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/semaphore/32/14994_2.png) [@Semaphore](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Semaphore)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 5:45am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/seemingly-queenless-hive-end-of-autumn-what-to-do-advice-please/11231/26 "2017-05-18T05:45:32Z")
Ok- so I inspected today at noon to see how the queen was going- her and her attendants were alive- the colony bees showing interest- and don’t seem to be ‘balling’ the cage. To me they seem calm- not aggressive- what does anyone else think: ---
**Author:** ![JeffH](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/jeffh/32/7192_2.png) [@JeffH](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/JeffH)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 6:26am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/seemingly-queenless-hive-end-of-autumn-what-to-do-advice-please/11231/27 "2017-05-18T06:26:59Z")
Hi Jack, it all looks good to me. However I haven’t had any experience introducing a queen without knowing whether a colony had a queen or not. I have always killed the old queen first. It looks like you’re on a winner. As @Dee said. “Fingers crossed”. ---
**Author:** ![Dawn\_SD](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/dawn_sd/32/15954_2.png) [@Dawn\_SD](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Dawn_SD)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 7:55am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/seemingly-queenless-hive-end-of-autumn-what-to-do-advice-please/11231/28 "2017-05-18T07:55:04Z")
I agree with @JeffH, so far so good, but you won’t really know until she is out. Are you going to release her, or let the bees do it? ---
**Author:** ![Semaphore](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/semaphore/32/14994_2.png) [@Semaphore](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Semaphore)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 8:07am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/seemingly-queenless-hive-end-of-autumn-what-to-do-advice-please/11231/29 "2017-05-18T08:07:58Z")
I was thinking to just let the bees do it. The candy plug is quite long but it was soft- hopefully the bees can manage by themselves? I was hoping now to leave the hive alone for ten days or so. It’s been cool and I don’t want to stress them. Do you think I should check to make sure she out before then? ---
**Author:** ![Dawn\_SD](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/dawn_sd/32/15954_2.png) [@Dawn\_SD](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Dawn_SD)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 8:40am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/seemingly-queenless-hive-end-of-autumn-what-to-do-advice-please/11231/30 "2017-05-18T08:40:49Z")
I completely understand your point. The only advantage of a direct release is that you get to see how the bees interact with a free queen, and she gets to lay in the empty comb as fast as possible. You know your weather and your hives better than I do, so I think it is totally up to you to decide what is best. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Bush](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/michael_bush/32/1024_2.png) [@Michael\_Bush](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Michael_Bush)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 10:22pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/seemingly-queenless-hive-end-of-autumn-what-to-do-advice-please/11231/31 "2017-05-18T22:22:00Z")
I would not do a direct release of a queen into an established queenless hive. I would do a candy release. ---
**Author:** ![Semaphore](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/semaphore/32/14994_2.png) [@Semaphore](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Semaphore)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2017, 3:39am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/seemingly-queenless-hive-end-of-autumn-what-to-do-advice-please/11231/32 "2017-06-01T03:39:26Z")
HOORAY! I waited a full 16 days before looking in to see if the queen had been accepted- I didn’t want to disturb the process. Opened the hive today- first thing I found that the queen cage was empty… good… moved out a few frames at the edge- a lot of honey has gone in- took out the frame where the queen cage was: BOOM- a beautiful frame of fully capped brood! Checked the next frame- same thing- big solid patch of capped brood and larvae visible. next frame the same- and there she was: my HUGE new Italian queen. She was wandering about looking very relaxed- and quite superior- much bigger than everyone else. She is a beauty! It will be interesting to see the look of the bees change as the old ones die out and are replaced by the more yellow Italian bees. It’s funny- I had convinced myself that the likelihood of this requeening working was very very low. I fully expected to find no queen, no brood and a hive in trouble. But no - we are back on track! The long hive is entering winter in good stead! I want to thank Greg from Mulder Apiaries in NSW: [http://www.mulderapiaries.com.au/](http://www.mulderapiaries.com.au/) the queen was a good price, delivered very fast and obviously a winner! ---
**Author:** ![JeffH](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/jeffh/32/7192_2.png) [@JeffH](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/JeffH)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2017, 9:04pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/seemingly-queenless-hive-end-of-autumn-what-to-do-advice-please/11231/33 "2017-06-01T21:04:26Z")
G’day, oh wow!!!, that’s great news. It’ll be nice to see those yellow bees coming out. A bloke got me to help him find his fairly new Italian queen that got up above his qx recently. It was a nice change to see all of his yellow bees. I found one wire in his qx was bent which allowed her to go up & down, which she seemed to be doing with ease. ---
**Author:** ![aaron\_y](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b4bc9f/32.png) [@aaron\_y](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/aaron_y)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 3:13am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/seemingly-queenless-hive-end-of-autumn-what-to-do-advice-please/11231/34 "2017-06-02T03:13:54Z")
Congratulations Jack! It’s always a thrill to get a positive spin on a ‘dicey’ situation. I’ve have experienced twice the agony of laying workers, in the few short months since I started this adventure. The sight of a frame filled with capped broods definitely gives me a high! Cheers ---
**Author:** ![Semaphore](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/semaphore/32/14994_2.png) [@Semaphore](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Semaphore)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 3:24am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/seemingly-queenless-hive-end-of-autumn-what-to-do-advice-please/11231/35 "2017-06-02T03:24:44Z")
I know what you mean- now! I have never inspected a hive before and found zero evidence of brood. I immediately assumed the hive was queenless- but then became confused by the notion that the queen can simply stop laying for a spell or that I could have a virgin queen… given the late time of the season and not knowing if there was a queen or not I convinced myself that the introduced queen would be murdered. So I was very happy to see those big frames of solid brood again! Seeing the queen was a bonus too. @JeffH Suddenly I am not totally sure if I will have the golden Italian bees or not- here in Adelaide when I mention Italian bees people seem to be talking about the golden ones- however reading online interstate people seem to be referring to the Ligurian KI bees when they say ‘Italian bees’. Mulder apiaries just say they are ‘Italian bees’. I will have to email them to try and get a more detailed description: unless anyone here is familiar with Mulder Apiary queens? The queen was larger than any other I have had and more golden colored- she stood out amongst the other bees easily. EDIT: curiosity got the better of me- I called Greg and he said they _are_ the golden type. He also said I was extremely lucky as I got the very last queen of this season- a month after they normally finish breeding them… ---
**Author:** ![JeffH](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/jeffh/32/7192_2.png) [@JeffH](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/JeffH)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 7:32am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/seemingly-queenless-hive-end-of-autumn-what-to-do-advice-please/11231/36 "2017-06-02T07:32:36Z")
That’s good Jack. Well done. I’ll be checking on my own tomorrow, to see if the new queens in some recent nucs got successfully mated. In between mak’n bread. [Previous page](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/seemingly-queenless-hive-end-of-autumn-what-to-do-advice-please/11231.md?page=1)