I will be keeping that split in my yard for the time being- and I have another hive to weaken out- so I can’t use ‘the Jingles method’ just now.
“However 2 frames of brood with bees is ok to start a colony. I would only add extra brood to it once the nurse bee numbers have increased & only one frame at a time.”
hmm- I was just planning to go against that- the little split I made today is just two frames- the bees that were on those frames- and one shaken frame worth of foragers (most or all of which will return to the mother hive). I was hoping tomorrow to add another two frames from the second hive: one of honey and one of brood. I was planning to shake the bees off those frames. This would leave my new Nuc in the same yard- with 4 frames brood frames- one foundation- and only two frames worth of nurser bees… . Whilst the bee numbers are a bit low inside- I am hoping all the emerging bees will soon add to their numbers?
When I moved two brood brood frames from my brothers hive to a swarm last week- by the time I got home around 40 bees had ‘hatched’. The two frames I took out today were solid capped brood- so there should be lots of bees emerging over the coming days? There was also a nice large patch of very fresh eggs- hopefully more then enough material to make a queen…
what I am planning goes against you advice a bit of adding only one frame at a time- but it should be OK?
Maybe I will find queen cells in that beardie hive tomorrow.
Not sure if you have come across this one before. Anyhow, worth a read.
I did this sort of split last week. So far so good. I checked on them today. Old queen laying in a hive six feet from where she was previously, and the new hive has made emergency queen cells.
G’day Jack, all of my advice is based on past experience after much trial & error. Although SHB prevention dominates most of my strategies, it’s the care & warmth of the brood that is also paramount.
A frame of sealed brood doesn’t necessarily mean an increase in nurse bee numbers in the coming days. The way I figure it, brood is sealed for around 10-12 days. The first bee may not emerge for over a week or more. If I transfer a frame of sealed brood with the expectation of a sudden increase in nurse bee numbers, I always look for a frame of sealed & hatching bees. On that frame you’ll see gaps where bees have already emerged as well as bees going through the process of emerging.
SHB aside, brood needs to be kept warm. You have dealt with chalk brood disease. Chilled brood is one of the factors in the onset of chalk brood disease from my experience, as well as others on the forum.
When you say "what I’m planning goes against your advice a bit of adding only one frame at a time- but it should be OK? … The answer is: probably not.
Thanks for sharing. A rather interesting video. I was wondering, though. If you didn’t want a second hive, could you combine the swarm back with the old site in a day or two? Would you still need the newspaper or would the bees still recognize their old mates? (favorably )
I wouldn’t want to recombine them as the issue I have is that the hives are a bit over-crowded.
@jeffH well noted- If I do add two more frames to that split today I will be sure to choose frames with emerging brood- or I will move them with nurse bees first having checked to make sure the queen isn’t on them. The two frames I did put in had large patches of fully sealed brood- hopefully it is closer to emerging than not. One of them had a nice patch on one side of fresh eggs which I thought would be good for making a new queen.
next year I will get onto all this a bit earlier so I am not in such a panic. Maybe next year I won’t chase swarms either…
No worries Jack, no need to wait til then to stop panicking. Stop panicking today :). By all means catch swarms next year, but first make sure that your own bees are right.
The bees don’t need large numbers of eggs or young larvae with which to make a new queen. I’m happy as long as I see just a few. It’s not the number of eggs of young larvae that makes the difference in my view, it’s the size of the critical mass of bees that will turn those eggs or young larvae into queen cells.
Remember what I said yesterday, a small colony of bees only made one queen cell even though they had plenty to choose from. A larger colony made 9 or more.
Well I just inspected that hive- it seems they were preparing to swarm. I saw several queen cups and one queen cell with a large larvae in it- nearly ready to cap. There are likely more hidden away…
I put that frame into yesterday’s split- along with another- with nurse bees and hopefully not the queen. I looked and looked and couldn’t see her… I’m not completely happy with how I managed things- I’m guessing that hive will still swarm this week.
I hope the split isn’t too upset today now that I’ve added bees from two different colonies… I separated them with a foundation frame in between… the numbers inside had reduced from yesterday with foragers going home clearly.
the hive is the one pictured above with two stacked nuc boxes - the bottom box has some foundationless comb with great swathes of drones. I’m going to have to clean up that hive at some point and cycle out those frames.
Edit: o my my- look at that hive now one hour after the inspection:
I’m with you there Jack.
I have difficulties with finding the queen particularly with a hive that is so crowded I need to split it - that is one reason I used the queen excluder method as I could not be guaranteed I’d see her. Also, it is not warm enough during spring down here to spend too long looking for the queen.
Jack, you can still stop that colony from swarming. Don’t rest in the knowledge that it will swarm next week.
It IS hard to find the queen in these circumstances. With my thinking cap on, what I would do is go in again & take a strong nuc out of it, looking for the queen. My strategy for this year is to take the queen with a split if I ever find that a colony is preparing to swarm. Then let the parent colony make a new queen after tearing all of the swarm cells down. Break all of the queen cells down in the nuc also. Take the nuc away, even if you have to take it to the back of a cemetery somewhere, where nobody goes. Give both splits fresh foundation, however empty frames work well also in the short term.
If you can’t find the queen, just check in about 4 days for emergency queen cells or not. Then you’ll know which portion has the queen.
I’m heading off myself shortly to do a bit of checking.
Good luck with it Jack, cheers
PS. with my thinking cap still on. I was thinking of a way to avoid moving a nuc away. You could move the hive from it’s original posi, replace it with another brood box containing a frame of brood containing eggs & young larvae, flanked with fresh foundation. Do an even split of the colony, still breaking all of the queen cells down. Place them in your yard & let the field & older bees return to the new box. Naturally they will make a new queen. Check in 4 days which split has the queen. Admittedly it’s a 3 way split, but it’s still better than losing a swarm.
Avoiding a new topic, I quickly ask my questions here.
The plan is to take a split from 2 Carniolan colonies, which are rapidly filling their flow boxes.
Got concerned, because I heard: Carniolan - Swarmiolan a few times. The queens are autumn queens, so just a few months old.
My mentor said it’s not true that his Carnies are prone to swarming. He’s got a few thousand. Thought I share this here.
However, received a mated Carnie Queen in the mail today, time to do the splitting.
Do I go about it just as with a split where you want the bees to create their own queen?
Or do I rather look for frames with capped and near emerging brood?
I suppose the new queen wants space to lay eggs?
Do I take just 2 frames from each of my 2 Carnie hives and that’s enough? Can only give them foundationless frames too.
The new split has to remain near the 2 Carnie hives, because I keep my apiaries sorted according to type of bee. I have another spot for the Italians and another for the Ligurians.
Any advice on how to configure the new split is very much appreciated.
Hi Kirsten,
I’m new to hive splitting, but I’m wondering which hive are you suggesting you WON’T put brood into during the split? The old hive you’re splitting or the new hive?
Cheers & thanks.
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