# Total newbie. Hive inspection. UK, North Yorkshire **URL:** \ **Category:** Beekeeping - Basics\ **Created:** [May 20, 2018, 12:53pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/total-newbie-hive-inspection-uk-north-yorkshire/15047 "2018-05-20T12:53:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![sunrisebluesky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@sunrisebluesky](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/sunrisebluesky)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 11:51am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/total-newbie-hive-inspection-uk-north-yorkshire/15047/21 "2018-06-19T11:51:37Z")
Hi Jeff. So they arent overly happy about having their home raided again however i did check the hive first and there is no sign of any of the lifecycle from egg to bee so it is queenless. Very odd as it did have a queen that was new…maybe I accidentally crushed her last time i inspected! So I opened up the other hive, took a brood frame with both larvae and capped brood (and i didnt see the queen and looked carefully for her) and transplanted that one - with some of the nursery bees - into the other hive. I tried to look for the queen after doing that but i saw her yesterday and figured there is enough brood in there that even if something did happen there is enough to make a new queen. Is that correct? I read somewhere that even if you do transplant the queen into the other hive both will have queens as they will make a new one. Anyway how long shall I lave them now before I check? Also when is the chance of swarming over and I dont need to check the hives so frequently (currently I am checking about every 8 or 9 days. Thanks! Its a learning curve 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Eva](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dbc845/32.png) [@Eva](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Eva)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 1:04pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/total-newbie-hive-inspection-uk-north-yorkshire/15047/22 "2018-06-19T13:04:04Z")
Hello Henny, welcome 🤗 I’m a third year beekeeper in the US, who’s finally learned some things by doing & seeing on my own yard this season, like dealing with swarm prevention…and capture when that fails! About your queenless-looking split that you thought had a new queen, in wondering if she is out mating when you’re looking for her? ---
**Author:** ![sunrisebluesky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@sunrisebluesky](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/sunrisebluesky)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 1:19pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/total-newbie-hive-inspection-uk-north-yorkshire/15047/23 "2018-06-19T13:19:54Z")
Hi Eva. Thanks for your reply. Gosh no idea! 🤷‍♀️ It would have been 25 days ago or thereabouts that the hive was split and queenless. I thought they had made a new queen but i guess looking at the lifecycle if they were queenless or with a virgin queen it would only become apparent around now. Well they have a brood frame in there now so I suppose I shall wait and see. The hive is very busy (the busiest of all my 3) so lets hope they get on with it! ---
**Author:** ![Dawn\_SD](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/dawn_sd/32/15954_2.png) [@Dawn\_SD](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Dawn_SD)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 4:26pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/total-newbie-hive-inspection-uk-north-yorkshire/15047/24 "2018-06-19T16:26:03Z")
> [@sunrisebluesky](#): > > there is enough brood in there that even if something did happen there is enough to make a new queen. Is that correct? Only if any of the brood is young enough. They can only make a queen from an egg or a larva which has hatched within the last 3 days. In other words, from an egg which was laid less than 6 days previously. Those larvae are very small - like a tiny C-shape in the bottom of the cell, floating in a little pool of white royal jelly. If the larva is fatter and you can’t see the royal jelly, it is too old to make a queen. > [@sunrisebluesky](#): > > Anyway how long shall I lave them now before I check? Also when is the chance of swarming over and I dont need to check the hives so frequently (currently I am checking about every 8 or 9 days. I would check again in a week. Plus you really need to check weekly if you want to pre-empt swarming. Nine days gives them too much of a head start. High risk swarm season in the UK is March to July (depending on weather), but I would still keep a close eye on them in August if there is a good nectar flow. Late swarms can happen in the right conditions. @Eva has a good point, 25 days since a split is not a long time for a new queen to emerge and get mated. Depending on weather, she may well need another week. ---
**Author:** ![sunrisebluesky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@sunrisebluesky](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/sunrisebluesky)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/total-newbie-hive-inspection-uk-north-yorkshire/15047/25 "2018-06-19T16:31:18Z")
Thanks @Eva @Dawn_SD. I shall check again in a week and see whats going on. Weather here has been all over the place. We did have a very windy couple of days last week (a gale further north) and some rain too…not normal June weather…well at least they have some extra brood in the meantime. And we have a chick hatched today which has been lovely. ---
**Author:** ![JeffH](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/jeffh/32/7192_2.png) [@JeffH](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/JeffH)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 10:29pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/total-newbie-hive-inspection-uk-north-yorkshire/15047/26 "2018-06-19T22:29:00Z")
Hi Henny, you did well transferring the brood. I’d take a look in a weeks time. Look for emergency queen cells on that brood frame. If no emergency queen cells, look for new eggs. If no new eggs, add another frame of brood. I have found on the odd occasion that bees can be slow to make emergency queens, therefore miss the chance on account that the larvae gets too old to convert to queen cells. I generally transfer brood frames minus nurse bees unless the colony is very weak. Older bees, I found do a great job of looking after brood. Plus you’ll have the nurse bees from the previous frame of brood you added. ---
**Author:** ![Dan2](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/dan2/32/10463_2.png) [@Dan2](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Dan2)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 3:56am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/total-newbie-hive-inspection-uk-north-yorkshire/15047/27 "2018-06-20T03:56:31Z")
> [@JeffH](#): > > I have found on the odd occasion that bees can be slow to make emergency queens, therefore miss the chance on account that the larvae gets too old to convert to queen cells. This is interesting Jeff and is an example of how bees make mistakes. I think this is one aspect of beekeeping not to be underestimated. ---
**Author:** ![JeffH](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/jeffh/32/7192_2.png) [@JeffH](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/JeffH)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 4:23am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/total-newbie-hive-inspection-uk-north-yorkshire/15047/28 "2018-06-20T04:23:25Z")
Hi Dan, yes it IS interesting. Whether it’s the bees making mistakes or they still sensed that the queen was still present for some reason, I don’t know. The one positive thing I observed last year was when I must have accidentally killed the queen in my observation hive, I took a look through the side panel the following afternoon after removing a frame of brood. It had emergency queen cells well underway & quite advanced, only a little over 24 hours after I must have killed the queen. That is WAY quicker than what any queenless splits take to build emergency queen cells. I think that if the queen gets killed & her body remains in the hive, the bees find her before removing her & quickly spread the news that she’s gone. So then they straight away start building queen cells. I have noticed with some queenless splits, it takes 3 days before you start to see any queen cells developing. That must be because there are still remnants of queen pheromones scattered over the frames. Queenless splits don’t happen in the natural world. It’s usually something like a bear or honey badger invasion or some other catastrophe that causes a queen to be killed. In those cases the body is found, removed, then they immediately get to work making a new one. ---
**Author:** ![Dan2](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/dan2/32/10463_2.png) [@Dan2](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Dan2)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 4:46am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/total-newbie-hive-inspection-uk-north-yorkshire/15047/29 "2018-06-20T04:46:43Z")
Hi Jeff, do you know if successful queens can be made by bees from drone larvae? ---
**Author:** ![JeffH](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/jeffh/32/7192_2.png) [@JeffH](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/JeffH)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 6:37am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/total-newbie-hive-inspection-uk-north-yorkshire/15047/30 "2018-06-20T06:37:43Z")
No Dan, I suspect not from apis mellifera. Edit: Apparently a different apis species, the Cape Honeybee workers can lay diploid eggs by means of thelytoki that produces workers. Anyway this is what I found on Wikipedia. ---
**Author:** ![Dawn\_SD](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/dawn_sd/32/15954_2.png) [@Dawn\_SD](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Dawn_SD)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 6:41am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/total-newbie-hive-inspection-uk-north-yorkshire/15047/31 "2018-06-20T06:41:38Z")
> [@Dan2](#): > > successful queens can be made by bees from drone larvae? Definitely not. They only have half the number of chromosomes required to be fully functional as a queen. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Peter48](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/peter48/32/14625_2.png) [@Peter48](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Peter48)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 9:20am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/total-newbie-hive-inspection-uk-north-yorkshire/15047/32 "2018-06-20T09:20:56Z")
What has happened to @Dee with this posting coming from her neck of the woods I have thought she would have added her wisdom to it? Cheers ---
**Author:** ![Dan2](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/dan2/32/10463_2.png) [@Dan2](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Dan2)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 10:05am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/total-newbie-hive-inspection-uk-north-yorkshire/15047/33 "2018-06-20T10:05:07Z")
I didn’t think they could, but apparently one study found that the bees constructed queen cells over drone larvae 9.3 per cent of the time. Apparently they realise their mistake eventually and tear them down. > **[Emergency queen cell production in the honey bee colonyProduction de cellules...](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02223608)** > > Emergency queen cell production was examined in honey bee colonies of mixed European races. Thirteen colonies were dequeened and followed on a daily basis until after queen emergence. Observations... It seems you are right Jeff about the speed issue. Queen loss detected after 6-12 hours and cells commenced within 12-48 hours. In my opinion what you have witnessed Jeff with the slowness to make emergency queens is a mistake by the bees. I don’t care for their excuses…too hot and bothered, too busy waggle dancing, too tired etc. ! ---
**Author:** ![Dawn\_SD](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/dawn_sd/32/15954_2.png) [@Dawn\_SD](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Dawn_SD)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 3:31pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/total-newbie-hive-inspection-uk-north-yorkshire/15047/34 "2018-06-20T15:31:28Z")
> [@Dan2](#): > > slowness to make emergency queens is a mistake When I have requeened or split, I hardly ever see queen cells within 24 hours. Often not at 2 days either. But by the 3rd day, they usually go nuts with queen cell production. 😊 Maybe my bees are like their beekeeper - a bit slow… 😜 ---
**Author:** ![Dan2](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/dan2/32/10463_2.png) [@Dan2](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Dan2)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/total-newbie-hive-inspection-uk-north-yorkshire/15047/35 "2018-06-20T21:07:50Z")
> [@Dawn\_SD](#): > > When I have requeened or split, Hi Dawn, interesting. When you say “requeened” is that what they refer to in the linked study as “dequeened” do you think? Going by the results of the study, after 24 hours, Jeff could be seeing queen cells that have been underway for 12 hours…by which time they are… > [@JeffH](#): > > well underway & quite advanced, I wonder if they are quicker as Jeff suspects in a (edit; computer made the following word requesting) requeening or killed queen situation as opposed to a split? Perhaps there is so much more disturbance to them with a split, such that they are slower off the mark or sometimes even run out of time. ---
**Author:** ![Dawn\_SD](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/dawn_sd/32/15954_2.png) [@Dawn\_SD](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Dawn_SD)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/total-newbie-hive-inspection-uk-north-yorkshire/15047/36 "2018-06-20T22:03:06Z")
> [@Dan2](#): > > When you say “requeened” is that what they refer to in the linked study as “dequeened” do you think? I read the study as linked, but it would only let me read the abstract without paying $40 more. So I am not sure of their exact method. With that in mind, my methods are as follows: 1. Simple re-queening. Non-aggressive hive. Kill queen in existing hive at hour zero, remove her from the apiary (I know @JeffH does something with leaving the body as evidence, but I don’t - she is off the crime scene before the deed is committed). Next day, 24 hours later, inspect for queen cells. If none, install new purchased, mated queen. I have never found serious queen cells at this point (meaning cups or bigger structures with jelly and larvae). 2. Elusive queen and aggressive hive. Split hive into 3 or 4 parts to reduce the number of aggressive bees requiring suppression at each inspection. Look for queen cells in each. Well-formed queen cells (fat larvae and a few days from capping) usually appear 3 days out from my intervention. As far as natural superseding or an unanticipated queen kill goes, I can’t comment, I don’t have any direct observations. ---
**Author:** ![JeffH](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/jeffh/32/7192_2.png) [@JeffH](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/JeffH)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 10:13pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/total-newbie-hive-inspection-uk-north-yorkshire/15047/37 "2018-06-20T22:13:04Z")
Hi Dan, I wonder if rough handling while doing the split would make the bees discover they are queenless much earlier. I did wonder if I was too gentle. I guess you have to be, you don’t want angry bees at you all the time. My reason being that bears & honey badgers really disrupt a hive before leaving after their pain tolerance is reached. After they leave, the bees have to quickly tidy things up & rebuild the damage & get rid of any dead & injured bees. It’s much easier to wait a bit longer for a split to make queen cells I think. Plus if we’re making lots of splits we can include a frame that already has queen cells started. ---
**Author:** ![Dan2](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/dan2/32/10463_2.png) [@Dan2](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Dan2)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 10:18pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/total-newbie-hive-inspection-uk-north-yorkshire/15047/38 "2018-06-20T22:18:34Z")
> [@Dawn\_SD](#): > > Next day, 24 hours later, If the study is accurate, it can take up to a further 24 hours to initiate cell construction but I know you would have very good reasons to add apurchased queen. > [@Dawn\_SD](#): > > So I am not sure of their exact method. yes…not sure if they left the dead queen in the hive or not. ---
**Author:** ![Peter48](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/peter48/32/14625_2.png) [@Peter48](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Peter48)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 10:35pm UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/total-newbie-hive-inspection-uk-north-yorkshire/15047/39 "2018-06-20T22:35:24Z")
Hi Dan, I have been thinking of Jeff’s way by leaving the dead queen in the hive and wondering if by doing that it initiates the making of queen cells quicker and ultimately a new queen laying sooner hence a stronger colony. Open to thoughts, anyone… Cheers ---
**Author:** ![Dan2](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/forum.honeyflow.com/dan2/32/10463_2.png) [@Dan2](https://forum.honeyflow.com/u/Dan2)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 12:17am UTC](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/total-newbie-hive-inspection-uk-north-yorkshire/15047/40 "2018-06-21T00:17:15Z")
I remember something about Hymenoptera releasing some sort of death scent so that might be relevant. [Previous page](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/total-newbie-hive-inspection-uk-north-yorkshire/15047.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forum.honeyflow.com/t/total-newbie-hive-inspection-uk-north-yorkshire/15047.md?page=3)