Yes, I can never understand people’s preoccupation with ants. If I dropped honey outside any of my hives I would have all the neighbours’ bees robbing first the honey then having a go at the hives themselves.
This is an interesting subject. Bees in the brood box will make lots of brace comb/walkways if the bee space is too much. The bees will repair the comb and trim it back if you remove the brace comb and if you put the frames back in at the correct spacing. However, in the honey box…the bees will happily make much deeper cells without the brace comb. You can put in frames a little wider each year and they will fill with honey…hence the depth of the Flow frames.
I use my hive tool to scrape the edges of the Hoffman spacers too…it ensures a good fit especially if your bees like to use a lot of propolis!
Which is why I can never understand people not using Hoffman frames in the first place - when you look at the Nationals and then look at the Langstroth’s, the national Hives are so much more complex to build, and maintain with Hoffman spacers. The frames are more fiddly to make and Langstroth so much more straight forwards and elegant.
When I see them I’m so glad @Cedar and Stu used Langstroth sizes. They are way more practical the only advantage National’s have are they are square and a square Lang box would be too heavy.
I know it’s an argument that will go on ad infinitum, but it strikes me that the KISS method the most logical (Keep It Simple Stupid)
How do you mean?
I thought both Lang and Nat frames came with Hoffmans.
They look identical to me (apart from the dimensions)
Valli…the Hoffman spacers are integral to the frame…with both BS National and Langstroth…if you use frames which don’t have them then you can use the metal spacers which you fit onto the rails or you can use the plastic spacers which come in different sizes so that you can allow the bees to make deeper comb in the honey box. Some people only have 8 frames…as the comb is so deep for the honey…and a more efficient use of space in the hive.
There isn’t really much difference in the frames apart from shape…ie width and length. The lugs on a langstroth are much shorter which some people with large fingers find difficult to pick up. You can loosen the frame first and then use a frame grabber of course.
One of the main differences, I find, is the wax foundation. And the means of securing it within the frame…or you have to wire your own…to avoid all those pitfalls I have plastic foundation which I coat with wax.
Another difference is that you can choose which way to have your frames…warm way /cold way…which you can’t with a Langstroth. This may not mean much until you want to stand behind the hive to inspect the frames.
It really comes down to what you are used to and what you start with.
It is amazing the mess you can find if you leave gaps or forget to put in an end board…bees are very good at using the space creatively!
1 Like
[quote=“Horsehillhoney, post:26, topic:5460”]You can use the plastic spacers which come in different sizes so that you can allow the bees to make deeper comb in the honey box.
[/quote]
Sorry I mean these ones - that is what they use at the Club Apiary and sometimes they break or they are not put on - they seem to be nothing but a nuisance from what I see.
I like the Hoffman Frames where the spacers are integral
[quote=“Horsehillhoney, post:26, topic:5460”]You can loosen the frame first and then use a frame grabber of course.
[/quote]
I didn’t get on well with the frame grabber I now use bare hands it is easier for me but at the club apiary I use nitriles
[quote=“Horsehillhoney, post:26, topic:5460”]And the means of securing it within the frame…or you have to wire your own
[/quote]My frame wiring is rubbish gave that up as a bad joke - I have never been properly shown but for the basic I will have to learn - that is why I threw my hands up and went for Starter strips of Wax
This is why I use the slatted racks, but can’t get any for the 8 Frame Langs
[quote=“Horsehillhoney, post:26, topic:5460”]It really comes down to what you are used to and what you start with.
[/quote]
Which is why I prefer the Langstroth and the appeal to my sense of tidy looking and uncomplicated - I’m complicated enough I don’t need more in my life LOL
All brood frames in a National come with Hoffman side bars.
For the super you can get similar. This is what I use.
spacers are old hat)
You get wax drawn on hoffman space, 11, then move your frames to 9 or 10 castellations which replace the frame runners.
A Slatted Bottom Rack is a ventilation board that fits between the bottom hive body and the bottom board to provide cluster space for bees. It allows air circulation without a direct draft on the brood, and helps prevent swarming.
Warm/cold is a bit of a misnomer and is a hangover from when everybody had solid floors. It makes NO difference if you have an open mesh floor.
Parallel/perpendicular to the entrance is probably better.
Warm, allows you to stand behind the hive to pull frames. Some people find standing at the side and having to twist the body to get the frames out difficult.
You can run a Lang warm. You make another entrance.
Thorne sell diagonal wired Lang foundation in Shallow/Deep and Jumbo. Doesn’t that fit your Lang box?
Yes I know that is what it is intended for but I find it will disperse any draughts as well and it did keep my babies well over the winter and cooler in the summer - I had no bearding at all.
I actually find standing to the side of the hive easier for lifting and turning the frames - my stand is meant for 2 hives and I use the remainder to store all the other kit off the grass - I have a second stand that needs setting up and painting and when I get bigger over the summer it will come into play for a short while.
I have a Snelgrove board and can use it for this if I want - I suppose what it comes down to is how you are most comfortable. I know many older beeks worry about the weight - this is something that has not bothered me - I got used to lifting heavy things in the kitchen.
Of course, it’s the same as standing behind a National, warm way as far as frame lifting is concerned…which is the way most people do it.
It certainly will do that but i wouldn’t worry too much about heat loss from the bottom of the hive.
According to Derek Mitchell, it’s negligible and the mesh floor disperses draughts completely.
According to my friends who run Langs it does keep the bees cooler by allowing lots to hang out inside the hive rather than outside it, that’s for sure.
1 Like
I did get some diagonal wired wax from the sales…haven’t made the frames up yet so will see how it fits. All my hives are BS Nationals or Beehaus. Langstroth is a new direction for me. I won’t be getting anymore…only for the swarm control…I bought a few extra brood boxes.
Valli…the point of using the plastic lugs is that you can gradually get deeper comb for the bees to store honey in. It is an efficient use of the space in the box. The castellations do the same job…you can get different sizes to take a different number of frames. I agree…I don’t like them either but that is a personal preference…many beekeepers use them to good effect.
I am, as yet, undecided about the OMF. A lot of the information given about them is anecdotal…in regard to ventilation/draughts etc. at the time beekeepers started to use them…it seemed to solve the condensation issues found in hives…but it isn’t the full story. Making sure the hive is well insulated is probably more important.
To get back to the cross combing issue…some beekeepers align the frames directly above each other…which can help. Or some beekeepers put each box at right angles to make it easier to break the brace comb.
1 Like
I find if I put frames at right angles the bees don’t build any extra comb at all.
They probably would if you did that with Lang boxes… 
That is an interesting way to do it - I suppose one of the few advantages of being square
Ha ha…not possible with Langstroths of course!
1 Like
I used to run my Langstroths the warm way. It takes a special bottom board of course…
No, she means that you can’t stack boxes with frames running at right angles to each other
Yes, that takes a square box. I have several, but they are too heavy… and they take special covers and bottom boards…
I am transferring the rest of my colonies to Beehaus…a long hive taking about 21 frames. 14x12.
I have found that most of my colonies have been on double British Standard National brood boxes. They are far too heavy to lift during inspections…in fact so are the supers!
I can choose to let the bees store their honey in the 14x12 frames or I can put half size supers above the brood.
I have found very little brace comb in the larger hives. Perhaps as the colonies mature more brace comb will be seen…I don’t know. So far…so good.
One thought occurred to me…because the hive is big…a colony is introduced with only those frames which are occupied…I then add extra frames as required. So the frames always get pushed together with a follower board behind them. In a conventional box…there always has to be enough room to allow the frames to be separated and the first one to be lifted…without rolling bees. So it is easy to have a little too much space that the bees will build brace comb.