Concerns on day 2

Hello my bee oracles.
OK, so first inspection done.
Arranged my nuc with honey, new, new, brood, brood, brood, new and honey. They were drawing out 2 new ones, one was still untouched. One honey had no action on it, and the highlights of the others are below.
Here are a few photos with what I think I saw. So this is a nuc that was installed 1 week ago.
I hope my comments and upload work as intended.


this looks old and circled bit looks suspisious and feels like it should be cycled out when the colony is stronger think this is some uncapped brood, not sure what else
not sure, but suspect hive moth larvae? 3 of them on the bottom board. theyr’e on a towl that i tipped the mummies from the chalk brood onto so it didn’t go on the grass, Starting to think I didn’t get a great nuc.

queen Elizabeth, named by my daughter, who got to catch a swarm at the local be club meeting yesterday. Very cool.

Any comments, tips or anything I missed would be greatly appreciated. Next inspection planned for 2 weeks from now, unless you advise me otherwise because of what you see.

Thanks guys, I’ll leave you alone after this… For a little while.

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Here are the photos that didn’t upload.


this looks like a good brood frame, can’t see too much and didn’t want to shake them after your advice.


circled bit i Think this is left over chalk brood…at least i hope it’s left over.

Oh, and there’s plenty of pollen coming in

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Very nice photos.

The first photo shows a very nice frame of comb. Don’t cycle it out. Bees almost always chew out the edges of foundation (or comb) on brood frames. There are 2 theories about why. One is that when the comb isn’t attached, it vibrates better, carrying their communication buzzing more efficiently. The second is that it creates “freeways” around the brood to allow bees better access. Some cynics say the bees do it to create hiding spaces for queens and queen cells too! :smile:

The first photo also has capped and uncapped brood. The cappings are light on the brood, because the comb is very fresh.

Second photo is capped and uncapped brood in slightly older comb. Propolis and shellac darken the cells and cappings as the comb get reused. Not a problem for the bees, they seem to like it this way. :wink:

Third photo is definitely wax moth larvae. Every hive has them. Don’t worry about it. Keep the hive strong and the bees will manage them for you. Couple of chalkbrood pieces in the photo too.

Fourth - nice queen, and superb photo.

I don’t see much residual chalkbrood in any of your photos. Certainly not anything that I would worry about. I don’t think you got a bad nucleus, it wasn’t perfect, but none of them are. I would be happy enough if it was mine. :blush:

Glad your daughter is getting so involved. It is so important for young people to learn about our natural world, and much of this stuff is not well-taught in many schools.

You make it very easy for us to help you a bit when you supply such nice photos. Thank you for taking the time and making the effort. :wink:

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thanks Dawn,
that’s encouraging. saw the wax moth and my heart sank a little.

anyway, it seems to be going well. they’re bringing plenty of pollen in, so that can’t be a bad thing.
i actually didn’t put the mummy photo up. there were quite a few but i knew what it was. after cleaning the bottom board, there weren’t many on it after 24 hours so fingers crossed we’ve got thru that.

think i’ll leave them to it for 2 weeks and then have another inspection. (or should i go weekly?)

thanks again for all you advice in week one.
cheers
ron

ps what part of england did you live in…my wife is from carlisle.

That should be fine, unless you see bearding on the front of the hive, or other signs of crowding. Sounds like you have a good start with that hive, and i look forward to hearing how things progress over time. :blush:

Like most students/junior doctors, I lived all over the place. I was born in Reading, Berkshire and went to school there. I went to University in London and Oxford. I have lived in Birmingham, Cambridge, King’s Lynn and probably the longest time I lived in one place was in Oxford - definitely my favorite city.

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Hello Ron, I do a hive check weekly and a full hive inspection each fortnight weather permitting. My weekly is thorough down to the QX. Fortnightly is down and checking brood, looking for anything amiss and anything that is going to improve the hive like moving frames or removing frames for extraction. Moving brood above the QX if the brood box is full of brood and so on.
Finding wax moth isn’t earth shattering, hardly an earth quake. It is usually a sign that the numbers of bees is down. If the colony is strong they will often fix the issue themselves quickly, much the same as SHB.
Regards

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On reviewing Peter’s comment, I thought I should clarify.

When I install a nucleus into a larger brood box (as RonM has just done), I try not to mess with them too much for the first month. I put the frames into the middle of the box and put frames of undrawn foundation (or drawn comb if I have it) on the outside of the 5 nucleus frames. If the nectar flow is unreliable, I feed them for around 2 weeks. I do my first thorough inspection after 2 weeks, unless there is some concern. Chalkbrood would fit that category of concern, so a week after installation, I would make sure it isn’t getting worse, and the bees are clearing up the mummies. If all looked good, as it does in the photos above, I would be quite happy leaving them to do their work in peace for another 2 weeks.

Now, once I have a full brood box and a strong hive, I try to inspect weekly. I often fail, but I never let it go longer than 2 weeks. My reason is that my hives are very urban, and the neighbors would come down on me like a ton of bricks if they saw a swarm. We also have SHB, so regular inspections let me control those with a hive tool squish if needed. So different setups and different styles will determine your inspection routine. One early Flow video said that twice per year is sufficient. In my region, that would be negligent, and City/County Inspector would confiscate your hives and fine you, if he knew.

These things are all a guideline. You will work out what is best for you and your bees. My only additional thought is that some balance is required. New beekeepers are often nervous, anxious and excited. Combined with admirable curiosity, that can result in inspections being too frequent. The middle way is the correct way. :blush:

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Hi Ron, Just had another look at your photos. The holes through the comb on the edges is done by your bees to aid air circulation and give short cuts to the other side of the frame, it is also claimed the bees do it to aid in them vibrating the comb, being a way they communicate.
The nuc looks good to me and the chalk brood is something the bees will fix up and could be recent from a chilling as the nuc was made up, but it is no big issue, look at it an inconvenient. I would go with the hive moth larvae in the photo, check for it again at your next inspection. The pic that you think is ‘old comb’ is recently drawn comb on an old frame, don’t cycle that out, it is too good to trash it. I wish my queens stood out like yours does.(Envy of her)
Regards

Hi Ron, when you say “Starting to think I didn’t get a great nuc.” I fail to see anything to be disappointed about. I see nothing to worry about in the areas you highlighted.

You have a beautiful looking queen there, with lots of sealed & emerging brood. You have a good amount of bees covering the frames that consist of nearly 100% worker comb.

The wax moth larvae, as others have said is nothing to worry about.

Given the right conditions, that colony will swell into a full box in 4-5 weeks.

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Hi Jeff
i was originally a little deflated, that after all the research i had done, that within the first week i’d seen wax moth, hive beetle and chalk brood. i didn’t expect, perhaps unreasonably, so many thing to rear their head so early.

after all the fantastic advice i have received from you guys on this forum, i’m feeling better now. nowhere in my research did i hear that most hives have these issues and the bees “mostly” take care of them…with monitoring and help.
the books you read all say these things are a problem and need to be dealt with.

had a local bee club meeting on monday and showed my photos to people there and they also said it all looks good and don’t worry about the odd moth larvae, beetle or chalk mummy, so i’m feeling better.
as dawn said, new beek’s are often a little more anxious than they need to be…i’ve lived up to that…but more relaxed now.

cheers
ron

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Well done Ron, beekeeping is a huge learning curve. After 30 years, I’m still learning new things.

Keep your camera handy. It takes beautiful shots. Look at the hair around the back of your queens thorax, brilliant.

If you see anything in the brood that concerns you, you’ll be able to get some nice closeups for us.

cheers

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Hi all,
Ok, so I think I need a little more reassurance.

It’s the end of the second week. Haven’t inspected for a week and won’t for another week, been a little chilly. Cleaned the mummies from the bottom board this morning. There were plenty. No bettles or mouth larvae tho. There is lots of pollen and Nectar around and so lots of activity from the girls.

My questions are
Should I still be trusting the bees will sort it out?

If it’s a spore based issue, it shouldn’t matter how much they clean out bodies, the spores will remain, meaning that any future eggs laid in that cell will be infected, right?

And as the Queen sticks her butt into cells to lay eggs she will spread spores?
Thanks in advance
Ron


Try a banana :thinking:

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Leave the bees to manage the issue and as the weather warms up the problem will disappear. The queen will not lay in infected cells so that is not an issue. Rely on the bees to fix the problem. They will hunt down hive beetles and bury them in propolis, They will kill any wax moth and clean up the mess and chalk brood is caused by the colony not having been strong enough in numbers to keep warm. Sure you can get a slime out if the colony is weak. With a strong hive the bees are the best ones to manage it.

As for Brad saying “Try a banana” he is just saying what he has heard locally so he says. It has long been known that the scent of a banana is the same chemical that a bee releases if she is in distress. Recently there is claims that a banana is good for bees as a source of protein and it does not make the bees angry, but on the internet I have not found sound information to verify the claim. Brad omits saying the banana should be put in a blender with water and then filtered and the liquid then fed to the bees. If you wish to feed them protein the bees will gorge on unbleached white flour, I can vouch for that, some in a saucer on the top of the top frames, but they may be foraging for enough in nature. Doing that will boos a Spring colony if it is needing protein.
Cheers

There IS a lot of chalk brood mummies there.
What I would do is make a simple solid floor. Have the entrance reduced in the middle so that you have a small entrance either side. The bees should cart the mummies out rather that have them sitting on the screen.

Try the banana trick. Place 1/2 a banana above the hive mat & under the roof, that would be assuming you are using a migratory lid.

What you could do is make a second bottom board so that you can swap them over after a week. You could scorch the first one so that you kill any chalk brood spores. Then have that one ready to swap in another weeks time. Keep an eye on the ground near the entrance for further chalk brood mummies.

What I’m saying is exactly what I’ve said.
That thread went off on a slight tangent where links have been posted that give scientific explanations on why placing an overripe banana, skin and all in a hive can help with chalkbrood.
Read the links and make up your own mind. That’s all-nothing else.

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thanks again for the advice guys.
much appreciated.

I think that is a lot of mummies too. It seems possibel that the bees got chilled at some point- perhaps when the Nuc came to you- and those bees succumbed and have now been dug out. Hopefully you will see less and less mummies as spring warms up. I notice in one of your photos above one frame looks very old. It has new comb but the wood looks very old. If I was you I would look to replace that frame first. Later on when your hive is bigger- gradually move that frame towards one of the side walls- then if you ever notice that it is full of honey and no brood- take it out and replace with with a fresh frame with foundation. If there are others like it give them the same treatment.

At least that’s what I would do. I like to get rid of really old looking frames- it would be OK to boil them in wax- or scorch them- but as they only cost a few dollars I just get rid of them. A local commercial beek said he believes that old frames begin to harbor disease (chalk brood spores for instance) and it’s good to rotate them out every three years or so so you always have relatively fresh combs in a hive.

I am also a relative novice and have only had one hive with chalk brood- it also came from a commercial supplier with the chalk brood- and eventually I got all of the affected frames replaced- and finally- last time I inspected it there was no sign of mummies. But I had issues right through last spring and summer - and that hive was not as productive as it may have been.

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thanks for the advice jack.
it’s a shame we’ve had such an eventful start to our beek life.
i was happy to NOT see any hive beetles and moth larvae on the 2nd inspection, looks like the bees have sorted them out…so we’re down to 1 out 3 pains in the hive.
cheers
ron

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it is a shame to have the chalk brood right off the bat. But: don’t worry at all about the wax moth- that’s entirely normal. There is pretty much always an indication of wax moth somewhere in a hive. basically: if there is a hive there are moths nearby. The first time I saw a grub I also panicked a bit- but now I don’t think twice. they are only an issues in very weak and/or dying colonies- and especially with frames and equipment in storage.

I can’t speak to beetles- as we don’t yet have them. But I think they are similar to moths in that they are always around to some extent.

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