…that kind of sounds unnatural for the bees …
But it’s not. 1 3/8" is unnatural for the brood nest. This is well documented back to Huber at least.
Here is a brood nest in a feeder. Natural spacing:
Here is the measurement of the spacing after I cut off the combs:
It is 30mm.
Here are historic references to 1 1/4" (32mm):
He’s saying planing off a little wood so that the frames sit at 1 1/4" on center instead of 1 3/8" or 1 1/2" on center
@adagna, @Michael_Bush. Fair enough, I always had the impression that standard frames when pushed up tight mimicked what the bees do in the wild. I take it the other way, I use 9 frames in a 10 frame box. I like the idea of the first frame I pull out being relatively easy & reducing the risk of killing the queen. It’s working well for me. So I’m sticking to it.
Hi Adam, I’ve been thinking about the dilemma your faced with when your flow hive arrives. Do you stick with the 8 frames provided for the brood? or do you shave some wood off the frames so you can fit an extra one in?
Hi Michael, if you tilt the tape measure slightly the other way, you can clearly see the spacing is 33 mm from center to center. That’s the comb on the opposite side of the red marks. I find if I have a swarm in a box with only one drawn comb & foundationless frames pushed tight up against the one frame of drawn comb, the bees will build from the center of the frame. On the other hand if I use the large spacing as I described (9 frames in a 10 frame box). If I remove a frame of brood & replace it with a foundationless frame, the bees will build central between the fully drawn combs, leaving an equal larger bee space either side. They don’t seen to mind. Really, when it’s all said & done, all the bees want to do is buildup to swarming strength so they can do their bit in the “birds & the bees”
@Michael_Bush Are you running the frames on the diagonal??
Valli, the wild comb is in a feeder
I will do some more research before I decide. I have plenty of time. I do like the idea of encouraging worker production via more natural methods and having the extra cells in the brood chamber. I’ve been reading as much as I can.
Do you have any pictures of the modifications or where/how to modify the frames? I think I get it, but there is really very little information on this online and what there is usually refers back to your page.
Hi Adam, there’s a lot of information out there, I’m starting to wonder if there’s actually too much information. If you have 2 flow hives coming, I think a good idea would be to use one hive will full sheets of foundation & the other with starter strips as in what will come in the package. From my observation of the flow campaign, the flow team used full sheets of foundation in the brood, you’ll see that in the video “swarm capture to flow”. It’s also obvious in their video where they do the brood inspection. It would be good to do one with each method to see if one method presents more challenges than the other. If the frames arrive ready to nail, all you’d need to do is shave a bit off each side before nailing together otherwise, if they use nails in the side, you’d have to remove them first. Some people nail down from the top only, others nail the sides, some do a combination of both.
Here’s my opinion on wider spacing, listed on the “narrow frames” page.
Q. Why not put 9 frames in the brood box of a ten frame box? Won’t that keep things the same (since I want to run nine in my supers) and give them more space so they don’t swarm and I don’t roll bees pulling out frames?
A. In my experience you’ll roll more bees with this arrangement (9 in a 10 frame box) because the surface of the comb will be very uneven due to the thickness of the brood being consistent while the thickness of honey storage varies. This means that frame spaced nine in a ten frame box have an uneven surface. That uneven surface is more likely to catch bees between two protruding parts and roll them than when they are even. It also takes more bees to cover and keep warm the same amount of brood when you have 9 frames instead of 10 or 11.
“…if the space is insufficient, the bees shorten the cells on the side of one comb, thus rendering that side useless; and if placed more than the usual width, it requires a greater amount of bees to cover the brood, as also to raise the temperature to the proper degree for building comb, Second, when the combs are too widely spaced, the bees while refilling them with stores, lengthen the cells and thus make the comb thick and irregular–the application of the knife is then the only remedy to reduce them to proper thickness.”–J.S. Harbison, The bee-keeper’s directory pg 32
Here is a quote from Hoffman (the inventor of the self-spacing frame) about excess spacing in the brood nest (although he went with 1 3/8"):
“If we space the combs from center to center 1 1/2 (38mm) inches, instead of 1 3/8 (32mm), then we have an empty space of 5/8 inch (16mm) between two combs of brood instead of 1/2 (13mm), as it ought to be; and it will certainly require more bees to fill and keep warm a 5/8 (16mm) than a 1/2 inch (13mm) space. In a 1/2 inch (13mm) space, the breeding bees from two combs facing each other will join with their backs, and so close up the space between the two brood combs. If this space is widened to 5/8 (16mm) the bees cannot do this, and more bees will be required to keep up the needed brood-rearing temperature. What a drawback this would be in a cool spring, when our colonies are still weak in numbers, yet breeding most desirable, can readily be understood.”–Julius Hoffman
No. I shave 1/16" off of each side of the spacers.
Like I said before, 9 frames in a 10 frame box works really well for me, remembering that I live in a sub-tropical climate, we have cold winters, cold enough for the bees to propolize any gaps. We never get the harsh winters like you get. I have to add a disclaimer: I’m not saying other people should do what I do, I’m just saying what works for me in the climate I’m keeping my bees in.
It’s common to run one brood frame short here in the uk but not in the same way.
A BS National( or a 14x12) will take 12 frames but most people put in 11 and a thin dummy board. This is removed at inspection making the frames much easier to get out without rolling the bees. You can replace the frames tight with the side of the box and put the dummy in at the other end when finished.
@dangerous yes I’ve never understood that. They take out a normal frame all the same at my bee group?
so the effectively take out 2 frames?
Taking out that frame gives you even more room but in my opinion you don’t really need it and if you do take it out you have to return the frames as they were to put that one frame back where it was…if you see what I mean, rather than leaving the dummy at the opposite end that you started.
I should add that leaving a full complement of frames is not a good option. Starting with a brand new box everything might just about fit but leave it a couple of weeks and the bees would have propolised the frames together and to the runners and space is tight. The first frame you take out will roll the bees. What if you simply want to take out a middle frame to check for brood. Those rolled bees might include the queen !!! Much easier to move frames into the space made by taking the dummy out and lifting that middle frame out with space around it.
Thanks Michael, this is a great read and for those of us operating single brood box hives, the natural comb for brood makes for more bees and less management during the spring build up. I’ll be moving a couple of honey frames up to the super and trialling empty frames (with a starter) in the next couple days, as its spring here.
Brilliant discussion. Thank you everyone for your opinions. Gold.
Your most welcome…
Gooday its the Captain here ,
excellent discussion , my understanding of a brood chamber is like picturing a football in the middle of your brood box - being the brood . Frames either end honey and pollen . This of course is over simplified as with expanding brood in spring , all frames get pregnant with brood . Now with no queen excluder , the football moves up into the second super and expands . -again honey to the sides ,pollen ,drones to burn .
I favor and encourage this to happen by manipulating the centre brood frames and locate them in the centre of the second super and close the gap in the bottom brood box to concentrate the remaining brood together . if i have no brood in the outside frames of the brood chamber , i leave them in place with bees attached and insert new frames ,with foundation only in frame positions 2 and 7 of an 8 frame box . it is called pyramiding and by logical extension can be carried into the third super as well .
WHY ? to create space , reduce the swarm urge ,to force the queen to travel further and spread her pheromones ionto a larger space in the hive , build more broor / add extra supers put your queen excluder on between super 3 and 4 , add boxes from there . You need a strong queen and give her room ,add ideals if you do not have the queen strength , but try 2 x broob boxes and you may be pleasently supprised in a honey flow ! ,
