Hi Michael, I’m not sure where you have your entrance, but I have mine at the bottom. My bees ALWAYS put the honey at the top & brood below it. There is never a problem with pulling the first frame out. You see that in my videos. With SHB management, it’s important to never squeeze the last frame in if you don’t follow the pattern they came out. In those cases, if I have to, I simply shave some of the honey off for the bees to consume so the frame fits back in nicely.
I still stand by what I said - Langstroth got it right, the boxes are to his design. What is the point of reinventing the wheel. “If it ain’t broke…”
I don’t know that 9 frame spacing is really reinventing the wheel. My dad and uncle were doing it back when they did commercial bee keeping in the 80’s, and even if it was a brand new technique back then its still be around for 35 years.
I’m just wondering if I went with 9 frames in the brood because my mentors all used 9 frames, I forget. If it was on account of them, the whole 3 of them were full time beekeepers since the war. So it probably goes back a long way.
Hi Michael, I’m not sure where you have your entrance, but I have mine at the bottom.
How do you think this is relevant to how they space honey comb and brood comb?
My bees ALWAYS put the honey at the top & brood below it.
All things being equal that’s what bees do. How is this relevant?
There is never a problem with pulling the first frame out.
I have no problems pulling the first frame out.
You see that in my videos. With SHB management, it’s important to never squeeze the last frame in if you don’t follow the pattern they came out. In those cases,
Especially when you have uneven comb from spacing them too wide in the brood nest.
if I have to, I simply shave some of the honey off for the bees to consume so the frame fits back in nicely.
Which you would not need to do with 1 1/4" frames tightly together.
I don’t know that 9 frame spacing is really reinventing the wheel.
It’s been around in supers since the mid 1800s. It’s been around in brood nests at least since Dadant System of Beekeeping was published in 1920 and probably some time before that. I have done brood nest spacing from 32mm (1 1/4") to 38mm (1 1/2") and much prefer the results from 32mm (1 1/4") in the brood nest. I prefer 38mm in the supers. But I prefer them simply because the bees prefer those spacings.
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Luckily no one told Stuart and Cedar this…
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@skeggley Stu and Cedar didn’t reinvent the wheel - they made a whole new vehicle - to put the wheels on.
I was referencing the use of 9 frames in a 10 frame box - Langstroth go it right and the bees do the rest.
@Michael_Bush - nice reply
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Stu & Cedar built a whole new vehicle to put the wheels on, agreed. With a full flow hive, where the only thing you need to provide yourself are the bees: What does one do in the brood box when the brood box holds 9 frames and only 8 frames are supplied? Remembering that you don’t need to add anything but the bees. Do you think that Stu & Cedar are wrong in sending 8 frames when they should have sent 9? OR do you evenly space the frames?
It looks like Stu, Cedar & myself are the only ones that agree on this topic,
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They are 8 Frame and 10 Frame boxes Not 9
They fit 6 or 7 Flow frames
Sure you haven’t seen cheap copies!! My Flow Frames fit perfectly
I think what they’re talking about is traditional frames not the flow frames. Jeff is talking about putting 9 frames in a 10 frame box with extra room, and Michael is talking about putting 9 frames in an 8 frame box by shaving 1/8" off each frame to make them sit closer together.
@adagna Adam
Some people wont take no for an answer, even from Michael Bush who has way more experience - too few frames the bees will get rolled and crushed - probably killing the queen I just want new bee keepers to get the correct facts.
Langstroth proved bee space, until someone comes up with a different way that actually works, tried and true is the best way for new bee keepers.
When they have some years and money to burn they can try other methods but if you want to keep your bees safe on neat-ish comb the bees have been doing it longer than anyone - so I follow that rule
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That’s fair enough, I can’t argue with keeping it simple while things are new. Unless you have an experienced veteran to take you under their wing. I’ve always recommended people master the basics before deviating. That’s what I always preach when teaching cooking classes. Don’t improvise on a recipe until you have mastered it.
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We have to remember Adam there are quite a few bee keepers here with virtually no experience.
If we don’t provide balanced information they may get things wrong.
Being a new Beek it is easier sometimes to see both sides.
Also some people do not give full explanations nor the reasoning behind what they have said or change tack throw in erroneous or completely differing and irrelevant content and all it does is muddy the waters of learning
It’s ok Adam, people just get confused. You’ll find, as I saw on the weekend, that the brood box supplied holds very slightly under 9 of the 8 frames that are supplied for the brood. Unless you add something extra yourself, you have to decide how the 8 frames are going to sit. My client with the Flow brood super decided he was going to space them out evenly. He already had markings on the box before he picked his bees up. If other people are going to do something different, that’s up to them. However, I think people should show Stu & Cedar a bit of respect & at least go with what they intended for at least a season before doing modifications.
This is getting right back to the original post & reason for this topic of discussion.
Hi Michael, I should answer your questions as best I can. Bearing in mind that this subject was well debated by us a while back. Your first question: I thought you inferred that because the bees built the honey out further than the brood, the brood would be damaged by the honey while removing the first frame. That kind of answers your second question. Because the honey is at the top of the frame, as you pull the first frame out, there is little risk of damage to the brood because the brood is thinner than the honey. It shouldn’t be an issue as long as the frames are evenly spaced as opposed to unevenly spaced, everything should be fine.
Here again is one of those topics that really don’t matter. If you prefer to use 9 in a 10 frame go for it!, if you stick to 10 frames in a 10 frame box go for that too! Not to sure why so many want to complicate a simple thing. However, I am an experimenter myself and have done some off the chart experiments with little or no problems. Bees are amazing creatures and seem to adapt at almost any inconvenience we throw at them and then again if they really don’t like something they just might up and leave. That hasn’t happened to me yet, but there’s always a first time. So far I basically leave my bees alone and let them live their lives they way they want to.
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Hi Tony, I agree, however brood frame spacing could be dependent on what climate you keep your bees in. Other posters probably didn’t read where I clearly stated that I live in a sub-tropical zone. Being that we’re talking about “European” Honeybees. You’d hardly call Europe sub-tropical. Maybe the reason why I’m successful with using 9 frames evenly spaced in a 10 frame hive could be because of the climate.
I do too think sub tropical and tropical would makea difference. I think hotter you will get more honey quicker and have a longer flow season and I could see making more space. We are colder and currently our temps here haven’t hit 50 F yet and have been down in the low teens and high 20’s mainly. As we are getting into our colder months, temps will drop even more. My bees are all tucked away for winter complete with bee cozys. I’ll get a picture of them soon as I have been out of hospital only a week now. just got a full knee replacement and am going to physical therapy 3 times a week and it’s getting harder each time I go. I’m just now learning to walk without a walker but can’t hardly lift a thing. But I can finally drive again. Yea!
Hi Tony, well I hope you get more mobile sooner rather than later, we’re a pair of geriatrics, you with your knee replacement & me nursing 2 broken ribs. It hurts mostly when I laugh, so don’t type anything funny:)
Hopefully you’ll be more mobile by the time spring comes. I’m sure more hives survive the winter with hive cosys than hives without. anyway, take care, bye