Starting a Nuc for a secondary hive

Beekeeping - Basics
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Starting a Nuc for a secondary hive

My mother hive swarmed 4 days ago and I lost the old queen with a large percentage of the workers.

I have a Carnica x Caucasion mated queen that I don‘t want to introduce to my mother hive as I want to introduce a Buckfast queen to that hive.

I bought a 6 frame Langstroth Nuc box to get a secondary hive population going. As my mother hive population is depleted and needs to recover, a beekeeper friend said she can give me a few frames full of brood from a strong hive to get my Nuc started. All going well I‘ll put those in the Nuc tomorrow, along with the new mated queen.

My friend lives a few km away, so when I bring the Nuc home, should I leave it closed for a period of time for the bees to settle? How long should I keep it closed before opening it and allowing them out to orientate themselves to their new home?

Can I put it near my Flow hive, or should I put it further away somewhere else in the garden?

Also, any tips on what other frames to put in the 6 frame Nuc to fill it up would be appreciated. We have had a strong nectar flow and good start to the season here in Bavaria, so the bees have lots of honey and nectar already stored. Is it ok to put some empty foundation-less frames in the Nuc, say with 2 frames of brood, and 2 frames of honey?

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I normally give them about 2 hours to calm down after the jostling from transport.

If you are going to open the transport nuc, and not transfer the frames today, put it right next to the Flow hive brood box. Don’t put it further away.

Yes, but put the empty frames at the outer edges of the colony. :wink:

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Hi Dawn, thank you for your input.

It’s been a crazy week for me, with the swarm, its all new for me and an accelerated learning path.

I want to introduce a mated Buckfast queen to my mother hive (Flow Hive 2+), but that wont come for up to a few weeks.

In the meantime, I was sent the Carnica x Caucasian mated queen by a breeder by mistake, and as I‘m unsure if it will do well in my geographical location, I decided rather than kill it I would put it in a Nuc with some frames of brood and let it start to lay eggs and build up a colony to see how it goes.

If the population does increase well then I‘ll add it into a 10 frame brood box so it can further expand its numbers. My options are to buy a second full Flow Hive, or to use a Langstroth Brood box and to put a Flow super on it when the the bee population is big enough.

I hadn‘t planned this for now, although I did have it in mind to get a second hive in the future. But I just don‘t want to waste this queen. She‘s really cute (haha) with a nice green dot, and about 8 attendants that are full of energy.

Plan was to put the brood frames, honey frames and empty foundation-less frames in tomorrow with the queen in her little cage for a day or 2, then to let her out and see if they accept her. She has been mated, so if I understood correctly this increases the chance of success.

I was going to put the Nuc next to my existing mother Flow hive, and let it establish there before transferring them into a 10 frame brood box when Nuc is full. That will be separate to the existing Flow hive, which will at that time have its new Buckfast queen.

Next year I should know better how to manage the hive to try and avoid a swarm.

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Add the queen with the frames of brood, or a day later?

In a few hours I will get a few frames of brood for my Nuc, add the frame of honey and some additional drawn out frames for the queen to get busy in, along with a few empty foundation-less frame to keep the bees busy as their population builds.

I was planning to add the newly acquired mated queen tonight, but she and her attendants are healthy in their small transport cage. I‘m leaning towards leaving it a day so the bees in the Nuc have a day to figure out they are queen-less.

I‘ve read and watched so much, but its all theoretical without the experience to actually know. I gather adding a mated queen increases the chance of success, but waiting a day might also increase the chance of success further. Does it make a difference? If I put her in today, but left her in her cage so the bees get used to her, then release her tomorrow, would that also work?

Any input would be appreciated.

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Good idea. I would wait, because they will already be upset. You can do it at leisure tomorrow morning, and have time to observe how they react to the queen cage before you leave it in there. If they are biting the cage and trying to sting the queen, either they have a queen already, or they need another day to settle down :wink:

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I did leave the Nuc overnight closed up, and opened airstrip this morning so they can get out. I put the queen in her cage on top of the frames. Initially one solitary bee showed interest, but gradually more and more, with many flapping their wings to announce her presence I‘m guessing.

I didn‘t see them being aggressive in any way. I removed the queen cage to attach a piece of wire to hange it down between the frames and the bees then became agitated. They definitely didn‘t like me taking her away. It was only for a couple of minutes until the wire was attached, and I hung it between the frames about 3 inches down. Then I closed the Nuc. They seem happy, and a few bees are now coming and going from the Nuc.

Ended up putting two empty outer foundation-less Flow Frames. Next 2 in from the sides are two frames full with honey. Then two frames in the middle full with brood. .

The queen cage is rectangular, with food packed in one end. The end with food is split in two with smaller half only fitting the worker bees. The other half fits the queen but has twice as much food. I opened the ends of the two exits, put some masking tape over them and slit it. This is the instruction of the people who sent the queen. They say she will emerge in 6-7 days and to check in about 8 days. The inner bees eat their way out, while the outer eat their way in.

I do have a question. I saw reading online that the young bees benefit from being fed to be able to produce enough wax to make the honey comb. I just assumed the 2 frames of honey would be their food source while they start to build their numbers. Do I need to provide a bee feeder at all?

The weather is warm now, and we are past the possibility of frost, nectar flow is really strong, so as the nursery bees graduate to foraging they will have lots of food available.

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A frame of honey will last a strong colony at least a week, but you have a nucleus, which isn’t a strong colony. I would say wait and see. When you inspect to make sure that the queen is released, check on the food supplies. If they are motoring through the honey frame, without replacing it, I would feed them. :wink:

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Update:
On Thursday (5 days after adding the queen in her cage) I opened to check if the bees were eating their way in to release the queen. Thy hadn’t made it through the masking tape, even with the slits cut in it. I removed the tape altogether, giving the bees clear access to the candy to eat their way through.

Yesterday I had a second look and the bees had eaten their way in through the bee entry. There are two entries, one the bees can enter or leave through, and the second that the queen can fit through is almost open. All the bees were really calm, the queen very active and healthy. The bees seem to have accepted her.

From what I read, it’s best to leave them to settle in, so I’ll now leave them for at least a couple of weeks before checking again if the queen is laying eggs.

The bee population has increased, so the brood are hatching. Seem to be having better luck with my Nuc than my Flow Hive.

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There was tape over the candy? I would have removed it prior to placing the cage, and even roughed up or poked a hole in the candy.

Since it has been so many days already, you might have just considered direct releasing her if there were no signs of aggression (biting the cage or trying to sting her through the cage) the bees should be fairly easy to wipe off the surface of the cage if they’re not biting and holding on.

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I think he put it there on the advice of the queen supplier. However, like @chau06, I would have not used tape, and I would have poked a small hole not quite all the way through the candy, using a cocktail stick or a very thin nail. It will still take them 2-3 days to release the queen, which is plenty of time to adjust to her pheromones. There are some methods (Snelgrove’s matchbox method is a favourite of mine) that you can use very successfully to expedite the process to less than a couple of hours, but it isn’t recommended for new beekeepers, as you can risk the queen flying off, unless you know what you are doing. :blush:

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I see that now in the prior message - strange advice, I think…

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@chau06
It’s a bit of a story, but I ordered a Buckfast Queen from Melita Bees in Malta. They ship worldwide. They didn’t have a Buckfast queen to ship immediately, so on their own volition they shipped a Carnica x Caucasian mated queen, which I wasn’t happy with as I chose the Buckfast to introduce specific genetics I wanted in my hive. Melita Bees kindly refunded my payment, albeit begrudgingly.

I couldn’t bring myself to kill the queen, so I decided to create the Nuc and to see how she goes, before then using her in a secondary hive.

Melita Bees recommend using the masking tape, then waiting 6 days, after which the bees will have released the queen. In my case the bees hadn’t managed to get through the tape, even though I had put slits in it. But it seems they accepted the queen in that time. I removed the tape and checked the next day. In that one day they ate their way in (through the worker bee entrance/exit) and bees were going in to see the queen. They almost ate their way through the longer section of candy which is the queens exit. I haven’t now checked as I’m certain the queen is now out and I will leave it until next weekend to give her time to settle in before inspecting. The bees seem really happy though.

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The supplier was trying to do the right thing by sending you a queen immediately, which backfired on them, putting them out of pocket. Will you return the refund if the queen turns out to be a good one?

A while back someone, for some reason got a refund for a package of bees. Everything turned out all right after some coaching from here. Reading that thread left a sour taste in my mouth.

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  1. I wrote to the supplier about 6 weeks before my hive swarmed, but they never replied. When my hive swarmed, I specifically ordered a Buckfast queen from their website, and they have many different varieties for different climates and regions.
  2. When I ordered, I mentioned my hive had swarmed and was queenless, and if they had issues sending the Buckfast queen to let me know so I could cancel the order and look for alternatives.
  3. They did write to me offering 3 different queens, as the Buckfast was not immediately available, and asked me to confirm which queen I would want, or if I wanted to cancel the order.
  4. I wrote 3 emails, and called 2 phone numbers without getting hold of them, and the first reply i got was an email saying it was too late, they posted the Carnika x Caucasian queen.

I understand they wanted to send a queen, but sending without waiting for my confirmation put me in a really awkward situation, not of my making. On their website it states this particular type of bee struggles in hot weather. It can get hot and humid where I live in Bavaria, and cold in winter.

As far as I’m concerned, this situation wasn’t of my making, and I had been very clear. Their intention might have been good, but it wasn’t helpful. They refunded the money for the queen and asked that I do something with it, rather than kill it unnecessarily.

I did write them back and offer to transfer payment to cover the transport at least, but they didn’t reply. There is always more to a story than you might be fully aware of Jeff. I have the queen in a Nuc. Time will tell how it goes in my climate. I have ordered a Buckfast from another supplier for my Flow hive.

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I understand them sending the queen to you quickly, especially after you telling them that your hive was queenless, because as experienced beekeepers, they would be aware that the longer a colony remains queenless, the more chances a colony has of developing laying workers, which you wouldn’t want to have to deal with.

PS, Now I really feel for the supplier, after reading “She’s really cute (haha) with a nice green dot, and about 8 attendants that are full of energy”.

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I’m resisting the urge to open and check out what the queen is doing. 7-10 days I thought I would wait to give her time to settle in, before doing an inspection.

Meanwhile, I check a few times a day to watch the activity of the bees. It’s been overcast today, not cold but intermittently raining. I was surprised to see the bees very active, many returning to the hive with white floaties on their rear legs. They found a good pollen source.

I’ve really curious to see if they started on the empty foundation-less frames. But the Nuc is looking like it is in a good place.

I bought a Langstroth hive yesterday, which should arrive early next week. I’ll need another as well, as I went to see the second swarm I captured and put in a brood box in a local apple orchard. That colony appears to be pumping, and happy. My Flow hive unfortunately is not going well at present, after two swarms. It’s currently queen-less again, and am waiting on delivery of my Buckfast queen to see if she can get the Flow hive up and running.

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You replied to me, when you probably meant to reply to @Dawn_SD , or @chau06 . The only comment I can make is to suggest you read up on swarming.

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Yesterday I inspected the Nuc to see how the queen and hive is going.

I noticed the last week the bees have been bringing a lot of pollen back to the hive. First thing I noted when inspecting was that they started drawing out one of the foundation-less frames. It’s not a lot yet, but they already started storing nectar in what they have build out so far.

The queen has grown a lot, almost doubled in size since I put her in I would say, and she is really active. Two brood frames are almost totally full both sides with capped brood. The Nuc bee population will explode soon by the looks of it.

I have a Langstroth hive coming that I will be able to move them into when it does so they have plenty of room. So far so good.

They have pollen, honey, and larvae too. I still find it difficult to see eggs,

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The bees in the Nuc have been really busy. Today I opened the hive to check how it is developing, and it is almost full. The two foundtion-less frames are almost fully drawn out and the bees are already storing honey in them.

Tomorrow I will move them into a prepared Langstroth Brood box with 4 additional empty foundation-less frames, so the bees will have some work to do before I add the super.

Thank you for the guidance and tips, so far it has helped make this successful and saved a very good queen.

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Is this the queen that you got refunded for? As someone who sells bee colonies with queens that I raise myself, I think it would be prudent, & I would be delighted to read that you returned the refund.