Adding new queen after hive swarmed

Beekeeping - Basics
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My Hive Swarmed on Monday

A little background.

I installed my first bees back on 27 March, from a full overwintered Langstroth hive into a Flow Hive 2+. As there were lots of brood in the Langstroth hive, I added 9 frames with brood and honey, and 1 empty foundation-less Flow hive frame.

First inspection End of April

I‘m in Bavaria, and the weather was under 10C, so I didn‘t open up the hive for the first inspection until we had some warm weather towards the end of April. The bees were really hard working from day one, bringing back lots of pollen.

Then we had a week where the temp dropped again, min -2C, max 6-7C. That week the bees stayed in, and there was little activity outside the hive. But inside, they were up working in the super like I hadn‘t seen before. Lots of them.

Hive swarmed

Monday 6 May approx 11am. My hive swarmed, and it settled 12 meters up in a big pine tree. I placed a Langstroth Brood box with frames of honey under the tree in the hope the bees might smell it and move in. That night we had a storm with wind and rain, and the Tuesday morning they had gone.

Post swarm inspection

Tuesday at 11.30am when it reached 15C I opened my hive and did an inspection. I was blown away to seem a lot more bees that I expected as a huge amount left with the old queen. The brood frames are full with honey and nectar, and 8 of the frames are half full on each side with capped brood. There was no queen, but I counted 12 queen cups, all closed. The foundation-less Flow hive frame is built from top to bottom and left to right with honey comb, and filled with honey and brood. Super impressive.

How best deal with queen cups to add new queen to hive?

Here is where I could use some advice.

I want to introduce a new Buckfast Queen to the hive, but it won‘t arrive for around 2 weeks. I‘m uncertain how best to deal with the current queen cups, to leave them for now, or remove them and leave the hive queenless until the Mated Buckfast Queen arrives?

How to best cycle out the Langstroth frames

The Langstroth frames are quite a bit smaller than the foundation-less Flow hive frames, which leaves more space around them and I want to cycle them out. Given my hive now swarmed, my hive is momentarily queenless, and the frames are full of brood, I was wondering if it would be ok to temporarily remove some Flow super frames and to move a few of the brood frames up into the super which can be a brood bursary for a week or so until the brood emerges? Then I can add some just add a few more foundation-less Flow frames to the brood box. Is it a feasible way to deal with this, or is there a better way?

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Those are all reasonable options. I would take down all but a couple of them and let them raise their own queen. If for some reason she doesn’t return or if you’re not happy with her performance you could always replace her later in the season.

Yes you can do that, or you could just add another brood box for your new frames and put the old ones above the queen excluder (except for the frames with the queen cells). If there is any drone brood, make sure that you provide them an entrance/exit above your queen excluder so they don’t get trapped.

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Hey thanks,

I removed all but 3 cups, was interesting opening the other queen cups to see what was inside. Lots of what I guess is royal jelly, white creamy liquid, with worms or grubs almost as big as a worker bee. I‘ll sit on doing anything further for now until I get a confirmation of delivery for the Buckfast Queen. That will be usually the day before delivery.

I also have a Caucasian x Carnolian Queen which I am putting in a 6 frame Nuc with some donated frames of brood from another beekeeper. It’s a way of hedging my bets, to have a secondary hive option in case my mother hive doesn‘t go good. That said, its possible that I might end up with two really good colonies in a couple of months, which I hadn‘t planned, but I don‘t mind. If it does go that way, it will be nice to have two separate genetic lines to observe and compare.

I read a post from Kieren this morning about adding an additional brood box, but I hadn‘t considered that as an option to move some of the Langstroth frames up and to add the foundation-less Flow frames into the lower brood box. Thank you for making that option clear for me.

Built out foundation-less frame

When I had the hive open to seek out and remove the queens, I inspected the built out foundation-less frame. I noticed the other day that there seemed to be a lot of drone cells in it, so today I looked more closely. Nearly the whole frame is drone cells. It would explain why my colony now appears to have so many drones, where as before there weren‘t so many.

Is that a normal thing, that they will produce a lot more drone cells in foundation-less frames? Or when they are about to swarm? I don‘t want a whole frame dedicated to producing drones. They are all getting fat eating the honey, lazy buggers. The Langstroth foundation frames have very few drone cells.

I was speaking to a local beekeeper yesterday, and she said to look out for it, and to remove the comb if there was to much drone cells. The more closely I look since the swarm, now 2 inspections, the more I see how much it will take to recover to what it was. Hopefully the new queen will get them into line and will start producing a lot more worker brood.

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Hive swarmed a second time :frowning_face:

So I checked my hive on Thursday and was really surprised at how many bees there were. Many brood must have hatched, and every frame was full.

The two outer frames are full of honey. The remaining 8 frames also have a lot of nectar and honey, and brood laid by the old queen yet to hatch out.

I noted that one of the queen cups had a hole, but I didn’t find her in the hive. I concluded that she was either hiding, or had flown off to mate.

Yesterday in the morning I noted activity in front of the hive. In teh afternoon had a message from my neighbour saying there was a swarm. I went out immediately and checked my hive. It was definitely my bees, and the bees swarmed to a tree in the neighbours garden. Luckily it was only about 2 meters high, so I was able to capture the bees with the queen and took them in their box to a friends house a few kilometres away. I need to decide what to do with them, as I don’t have another hive to put them in yet. But it was a good experience to catch them, after loosing the old queen with most of my bees in the first swarm.

Being my first year with bees, without a reference point for comparison, I seem to be learning the hard way.

I don’t want my bees to build up and them swarm again. The Flow super was not being worked on, so I thought they would go up there and start work before deciding they had a lack of space, but clearly I was wrong, or my bees genetically have a high tendency to swarm.

I assume that because all the frames in the hive are full of honey, nectar, pollen and brood, with little free space, the queen decided it was better to go find a new home where she could build a new hive. I removed 2 flow frames from my Flow super, and put 2 old drawn out frames with brood and honey up in the super. Is also removed the foundation-less frame that the bees built out almost 100% with drone cells, and put it in a tree. A local beekeeper said the birds will eat the larvae, and the bees with take the honey.

I put three new foundation-less frames in the brood box to replace the three I took out. I’m hoping that the bees (now severely depleted in number after the second swarm) will be happy to have the work to draw out the new frames, and this will give the new queen when I add her fresh new cells to lay eggs in. I’m also hoping that as the brood hatch out in the frames up in the super, it will encourage the nursery bees to move up and get used to being in the super.

The hive no longer has queen cups, so they will now bee queen-less until my new Buckfast queen arrives, which I’m hoping will be in about a week.

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Were the flow frames new or previously unworked? I think some people’s bees are slow to accept the flow frames especially when they smell like a factory instead of the hive.

Some people pull frames up from the brood box into the flow super (even though it does fit amazingly) until the bees get the hint and then replace the langstroth frames with the remaining flow frames.

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It’s my first year, having bought the Flow Hive in November, the Flow frames are spanking new, unused. I did smear some wax from the brood box on the Flow frames which helped, and prior to the first swarm where I lost the old queen and 70% of my bees, they were starting to build the frames out and store nectar in them.

I have 9 langstroth frames from the original hive I took the bees from to put in my flow hive, and one Flow foundation-less frame the bees built out with almost 100% drone cells, which the old queen filled with drone eggs before swarming.

The foundation-less drone frame is now sitting in a tree (I removed it from the hive yesterday). A local beekeeper said the birds will eat the drone larvae, and the bees will take the honey from the frame.

I moved 2 of the old langstroth frames with brood up to the super, and noted today that nursary bees have moved up to look after the frames. I also smeared more wax on the remaining Flow frames, and added 3 empty Flow frames into the brood box in place of those I moved out.

I’ve hoping this will prevent another swarm, and the bees to start storing honey up in the super.

I’ve also been building a jig for my router bench to make extra boxes, with box joints. I plan to have some spare half size boxes that will fit medium Langstroth brood frames to put between the brood box and the super next time I see the lower super is full, just so they have space to fill and extra work to keep them happy. Hoping this also helps to prevent another swarm.

Being new to beekeeping, it’s a steep learning curve, and I’m getting the accelerated lessons on managing the hives tendency to swarm. I started with one hive, and no intention to have more for the immediate future. 3 months since starting, in addition to my Flow hive, I now have a thriving Nuc, and a new brood box full with bees and a new queen that I managed to capture after they swarmed yesterday.

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Laying worker bees

The first year of my Flow Hive is not as seamless as I thought it would be.

New virgin queen swarmed after mating

After my hive swarmed with the original queen and was lost, a new virgin queen was born and swarmed almost immediately after she returned to the hive after mating. I captured that swarm, and added it into a brood box which is currently in an apple orchard, and doing really well. That new queen is huge, and a prolific layer. The brood frames are full and the colony population growing really well.

New Buckfast queen killed by laying worker bees

I ordered a Buckfast queen for my hive but it took longer than expected to be delivered, and was dead when delivered. The supplier then sent a replacement, but with holidays it took then another 10 days before it arrived. I added 3 empty foundation-less frames to the Flow hive to replace the old drawn out frames that came with the original bees in the start of spring. The bees have done a really nice job of drawing out the frames with new honey comb. Before added the replacement Buckfast queen I noticed that there was eggs and larvae in the new comb, but no queen. I almost 100% certain the worker bees have been laying eggs.

I made the mistake of adding the replacement Buckfast queen in her cage, and discovered after 3 days that the bees had killed her.

Second Buckfast queen

I have a second Buckfast queen, but I don’t want her to meet the same fate as the first one. I added her to the hive in her cage 3 days ago, this time leaving the end tabs closed so the hive worker bees can’t get to her. My hope was/is that they would get used to her before I open the tabs so she can get out to be with them. I’m not sure this is a good way as I have been reading online and am not sure how to proceed.

I plan to open the hive this afternoon to see how she is, and how they are with her. I’m not confident in opening the end tabs on her cage though and am weighing up the best way forward.

Options

Reading online, I think I have 2 options other than just opening the queen cage tabs.

  1. Adding the queen to a Nuc with a frame of brood, which I have from my captured swarm which now has lots of brood. Possible this is the best option for the Buckfast queen to ensure her survival.
  2. I read that adding a frame of brood to the Flow hive per week for 3 weeks is a way to stop the laying workers from laying. After 3 weeks if for another 2 weeks the same if they are still laying. Then I can combine the Nuc with the Flow hive using the newspaper technique.
  3. I also read that taking the frames out and shaking the bees of them 100 meters from the hive. Theory being the laying workers can be to heavy to fly back to the hive, so it will eliminate the laying workers. There seems to be varied feedback about the success of this method.

I’ve pretty much given up hope of getting honey from the Flow hive this year, and it seems more likely I will get honey from my captured swarm or from another Nuc that I started which is doing really well.

I would appreciate if anyone has advice, or can confirm the above options are the best way forward. At this stage of the season, I’ll be happy if I have a healthy colony before winter so they will survive though to next season.

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I like option 1 for your new queen.

Then for the hive with the laying worker, I like option 2. You don’t have to stop at the third frame of brood. Keep going with a frame of brood per week until the colony starts building queen cells.

Bare in mind that each frame of brood will boost the population, depending on what %age of the frame contains brood.

You can also be reminded that if you want a particular hive to produce honey in a current season, all you need to do is keep on adding frames of brood, even if the colony is queen-rite. You can replace the F frames with frames of brood, as long as you have enough nurse bees to look after it. As bees emerge, they will be replaced with honey. Then at some point you can replace those frames with F frames.

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Excuse my ignorance of the terminology, but F-Frame? At a guess, it means either foundation-less frame, or food frame?

UPDATE - Flow hive inspection just completed now

I just did an inspection of my Flow hive, as it’s three days since I put the second Buckfast queen in the hive (in her enclosed cage). I was really happy to see she is still alive with her attendants in the cage, and very active. She seems keen to get out. When I lifted the queen cage out to inspect it, there was a good amount of bees that seem really attached to it. It looks similar to how they swarm around the queen, but I can’t tell with my inexperience if they are being aggressive or not. I noted some are curling their abdomen under in a similar way to when they sting. Here is an image of the queen cage with the attached bees.

IMG_6220
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Question: When I try to remove the bees they do not what to leave the queen cage at all. Is it a good sign, or not?

Having already lost one Buckfast queen, I’m hesitant to risk this one as she is a beauty. I did order a Nuc which will be delivered this week all going well, For now I put the queen cage back in the Flow hive (still closed), as she has ample food left and it seems better than in a box in my house for now. When the Nuc is delivered I can move her with some frames of brood.

3 Frames of fully capped brood in Flow hive
What blew me away was that there are now 3 almost fully capped (both sides) frames of brood in the Flow hive, and from no queen. My brood box in the apple orchard has lots of brood, so I can take a frame a week from that as that queen is a prolific layer. At this rate the population in the Flow hive will explode sooner than I expected.

I’m a little confused though. If the capped brood is from laying workers, then it will be unfertilised and therefore drone brood. Normally the drone brood has half round caps, and the worker bee brood caps are flat. They look very different normally. All the capped brood in my hive though has flat caps, like normal worker brood caps. Is this normal for brood from laying worker bees? I have been fairly successful finding queen bees, so far, however is it possible that this Flow hive has a queen that is really good at hiding?

You mentioned at some point the bees in the Flow hive will start making queen cups.

Question: Is it realistic to want to combine the Nuc with the Buckfast queen with the Flow hive in a few weeks once the Flow hive bees start making queen cups?

Experience is gold

I started this year with one Flow hive, blissfully ignorant. My Flow hive which is teaching me a lot through experiencing.
I now have:

  1. I have a healthy new Carnica x Carnelian queen and colony in a Nuc started with 2 frames of brood.
  2. Captured swarm thriving in a brood box in a local apple orchard.

That’s really helpful info you provided, about adding brood frames to a hive to increase the population. I have good contacts here with local beekeepers, and now with additional hives, access to resources to actually add frames of brood.

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I should have spelled it out, F=Flow, as in Flow frames. I said to replace flow frames with frames of brood, so as to increase the population, so that you can get honey from your Flow hive this season. Replace the F frames after the brood has all emerged. Then you can add those frames back to other colonies.

To answer your question: It’s not a good sign, on account that the hive is queen-rite. Remove that queen asap & do option 1, from your previous post with her. Add more bees to the one frame of bees & brood, as suggested, & leave them queenless for 1 day before introducing the new queen. It’s best to take it about 5 or 6 km away after doing the split, so that no bees return to the parent hive.

You need to read up on the subject of swarming. You’ll find that when a colony swarms, they leave provision for a new queen to take over the colony. Even a secondary swarm still leaves provision for a new queen to accommodate the remaining colony. This is what happened with your hive, which is why the colony now has 3 frames of sealed worker brood.

What happened was: the virgin queen successfully mated, so therefore she’s laying fertile eggs resulting in worker brood. It sounds like with 3 full frames of sealed brood that you have a really good queen, I would not replace her.

Even though the new mated queen is not a “Buckfast”, it’s not a bad thing. All you need to do is provide the hive with a bit of insulation to compensate during winter.

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Thanks Jeff,

When the original queen swarmed she left loads of capped brood, and 12 queen cups. I did regular inspections and noted when the virgin queen hatched, and then 3-4 days later they swarmed with her. I captured her with the swarm and she’s in the apple orchard doing really well. She’s huge, bigger than any queen I saw to date.

Following the second swarm I haven’t been able to see another queen in the hive. No queen cups appeared after that swarm. I did remove a foundation-less frame that was almost 100% drone cells, and moved 2 other frames of brood up the the Flow super, replacing those 3 frames with empty foundation-less frames. The bees have drawn those out beautifully with worker/ honey comb cells. The capped brood appeared over the last week or so, and as I haven’t been able to locate a queen I assumed they were queen-less.

I will move the Buckfast queen to a Nuc with a frame of brood as suggested. If there is a queen in the Flow hive, she’s doing a really good job of remaining hidden. I’ll keep adding brood frames to the super as suggested, that’s a good tip. If there is no queen, hopefully the laying workers will stop laying and will build queen cups, at which point I will know for sure then.

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I’m going by your description of the flat caps, that can only be worker brood. That’s why I didn’t answer that specific question. To answer that question: No. Laying workers only produce infertile eggs (in worker comb), resulting in drones, as evidenced by domed caps.

By recognizing what we see in the brood box, it’s normally not necessary to physically spot the queen. We can waste a lot of time, as well as stress the bees more than is necessary by looking for the queen, when all we need to see is evidence that she is there.

The second swarm would not have issued if there wasn’t the means for the remaining colony to have a queen. The first swarm should have issued with the old queen. The second swarm should have issued with the first queen to emerge (generally speaking). The remainder of the colony will have the remaining queen cells, with the victorious queen out of those to continue on with.

Adding frames of brood, as I suggested is a great way to get a colony up to a good sized population in a short period of time. You must be reminded that a full frame of brood can hold 3 frames of bees, once they all emerge. So therefore it’s advisable to not overdo it, & risk the possibility of the colony swarming again. It takes some practice to get it right.

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Thanks Jeff,

I can’t tell you how grateful I am for the really helpful info. It’s clear then it’s good to take out the Buckfast queen asap then. Given there is 3 full frames of capped brood in the Flow brood box now, when they emerge the hive will be a healthy size again.

I was looking for multiple eggs, or larvae in the cells, or for eggs laid on the sides of the cells, but I didn’t see any. All the larvae I saw were perfectly centered in the bottom of the cells. I got it now, to look for signs of the queen being present.

I’ll take the Buckfast queen out and leave the hive for a week before opening to inspect again to see how the brood are going.

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I removed the Buckfast queen, and whilst doing that saw the new self raised queen in the Flow hive. She is a beauty, really hard working, and the hive is building really nicely.

I put two frames of brood, a full frame of honey, a drawn out empty frame of honey comb, and 2 empty foundation-less frames in a new Nuc, with the Buckfast queen in her cage. She became very lively and the bees were really friendly, not aggressive at all. After 3 days she is out, her abdomen has enlarged by almost 2.5 times, and she is running around in the Nuc frames.

I‘m amazed at how fast the Nuc came together.

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That’s all good news, especially for the Buckfast queen.

It’s been a great learning curve for you.

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Yesterday I was working on a pizza oven build in my garden when I heard a familiar loud drone. I looked up to see my hive, and Nuc‘s and the air traffic was as usual, normal arrivals and departures, nothing untoward. I couldn‘t work out where the drone was coming from, then a mass of bees came into sight moving through the neighbours garden then into ours. The swarm settled within 10 minutes in a Elderberry bush bordering the rear neighbours garden. I was concerned as it is 7-8 meters from my Nuc‘s, and same again to my Flow hive, but the bees in all my hives didn‘t seem fussed or upset at all, and the swarm bees (knock on wood) haven‘t tried to move in on my hives. Unfortunately, with 4 hives now, and no spare boxes, I‘m not able to capture the swarm. I did notify the local bee club though, just in case someone from there has lost some bees, or can come and capture them.

We do live a few hundred meters from the forrest, so I guess the bees will go there if they are not captured.

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The Flow hive is building up nicely, not yet back to where it was pre first swarm, but bees are moving up into the super and building out the frames.

I had far too many drones, from the first swarm when the bees built out a foundation-less frame entirely with capped drone cells and larvae. I removed that frame when about 75% of the brood hatched out, but then there seemed like thousands of drones.

This last week we started having some consecutive hot days, and the bees started guarding the entrance to the Flow hive, ejecting drones, and preventing them from re-entering. It took about 4 days, but today I see very few drones trying to return to the hive.

The bees however are bringing back masses of pollen. Slowly I have removed old original frames that came with the bees that were meant for Zander hives, a little smaller than Langstroth size. The bees have drawn out 4 foundation-less flow frames, and have 2 more that I put in last week that I haven’t yet checked.

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