Discoloured frames and degrading plastic

Flow Hive
21

You might like to fit the draining tube and with a spraying bottle thingy adjusted to a jet spray some warm water into the chamber to dissolve and flush out the chamber. Leaving there might have a detrimental effect on future honey extracted, I don’t know.

My advice to fit roof vents to a hive to reduce condensation was for KeithB who initiated this thread, and others in warmer climates and not as a general advice. Keith is only 25k’s away from me and since fitting roof vents some years ago the bees haven’t propolised the vents although when I was considering the idea I was told the bees would close them up basically over night. It certainly reduced condensation and bearing in the hot weather so inadvertently I ended up with more productive hives. I don’t know if it would work for you climate but for about $3 in cost it might be an option as an experiment. I bought my vents at my local hardware store as ‘kitchen cupboard vents’, very common years ago but gone out of fashion these days.
Cheers Fred

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Hiya Fffffred, what makes you think fermented?

Upon reflection on the venting, I remember Jeff saying he was not putting vents into his lids anymore as they always got propolized closed also. Perhaps the size of the mes is the reason they are closed up by the bees? There are 2 types of vents on mine, mesh and perforations. I’ll have to check the sizing out of interest.

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Smell, taste, bubbles… it was very runny. I’ll wash the channels out before extraction.

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It was Jeff who advised me against fitting vents as the bee would more than likely propolis them closed. I’m not sure if he has ever fitted vents in his hives, I haven’t looked for them I guess. I have fitted both the mesh and the perforated into my hives and with excellent results here cutting down bearding in Summer from mid afternoon till all hours of the night so I assume a happier and a more productive hive.
Cheers

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Bees will propolise gaps up to ~6mm, I doubt the mesh type will make any difference skeggley.

One of the reputable sources on beekeeping, David Cushman, advises against top ventilation too.
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/ventilation.html

This is one quote:
Deliberate ventilation at the top of the hive will cause some of the moist air to be lost, giving the appearance of improving the situation, but it will destroy the natural circulation of air within the hive, replacing it with a chimney effect.

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26

I prefer to do them before there is queen cells but I’m finding some have already made them. So I’m busy kicking my back side about that.
With the drought for over a year it was a hard time till the rain eventually came in the end of February and finally there was nectar in the flowers in the bush. Since then it has been great and I have had an extraction of my wooden hives and the poly hives are doing even better, the poly hives are killing the wooden hives for honey extracted by at least 20%. I’m doing some extracting over our Winter as hives are becoming honey bound. The drought has had an effect even down on the coast but nothing compared to others

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Ahem…

The climate where David Cushman kept his bees was a bit different. Some advice not so widely applicable. Not necessary wrong, but local climate variations may require different setup.

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I agree that in cooler climates roof ventilation is not required and can actually cause adverse issues. In my climate I regard it essential along with painting the hive white and afternoon shade to provide the maximum comfort for the colony. What is right for some climates can be a disaster in another.
Cheers

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Hi there ABB, thanks for your post, much appreciated. To be clear, I’ve only been keeping bees for three or four years so pretty much a beginner, and in no way I want to pose here like an expert on bees. I am totally ignorant on the subject, but I try to keep an open mind.

I am trying to avoid anthropomorphising bees and their behaviour, and want to understand how bees do their thing from those that conduct some sort of scientific research on the subject, and explain things the way I can understand them.

Unfortunately, bees are very adaptive and deciding what’s “best” for them can be at times head scratching. That’s my conclusion so far.

From what I read until now, bees like to build their comb on solid ceilings of cavities, and seem to prefer bottom entrances of about 15cm squared. They evolved to deal with this. I am reading that even in hot climates, top insulation is far better than ventilation because the latter disturbs their efforts to regulate hive temp with a chimney effect.

I am also reading about open mesh floors, which is another sort of ventilation and is helpful in getting rid of moisture. Warm moist air in the brood rises, and as it cools down going through honey frames/comb it goes down again down the hive walls. I posted an illustration taken from The Australian Beekeeper recently, on some other post. Some research done by the NSW DPI has shown their benefit in a variety if climates. I tend to give some weight to scientific research more than anecdotal evidence. Problem is that even scientific research can be contradictory so I know I have to be very careful.

I am also aware that here in the west, migratory lids have vent holes, but my understanding is that’s because hives are migrated on trucks, and need the extra vents. I may be wrong. There are also Chinese hives on the market that come with vents.

I find this topic fascinating and intriguing and like to hear what others are doing and why, as long as it doesn’t turn into a religious debate.

Now, regarding that large propolised hole. Those bees obviously didn’t read the book I read. I read that bees “usually” propolise gaps of up to ~6mm, and wax larger gaps. Having said that, I saw a photo of a screened inner cover almost entirely propolised. Thanks for sharing.

PropolizedVentilation
PropolizedVentilation743×557 45.2 KB

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30

Hey! I am actually a friendly fellow! :grinning: My post wasn’t an attempt to stick a pin into you. Just wanted to show an alternative opinion by bees on the subject of gaps :slight_smile:

I am struggling with idea of ventilation too. Ventilation of my hives before Australia looked like a layer of boards over frames, old duck pillow or doubled thick cotton filled blanket above them and telescopic cover on top of all of this. Trust me, after that a piece of plastic not even covering whole opening and holes above it look really weird. Nevertheless, australian beekeepers with such setup are among of the highest producer of honey per hive in the world. Maybe they onto something?

I am fan of a scientific research too. But often when I read papers on the same subject of beekeeping from different places I find that authors give almost diametrically opposite explanations to the same events or recommendations on how to act in certain circumstances. Climate, bees and researches may vary :slight_smile:

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I took your post as friendly and positive ABB!! I absolutely get your very valid points.

My scientific education is basic and I easily get lost reading heavy stuff. Researchers in opposing extremes of climates concluding different views is somewhat understandable. But then there are members here in Perth within 10km of each other in very similar climates and one wants vents while the other doesn’t. I assume they both have very productive hives. I think that this is due to the bees’ capacity to adapt to whatever we throw at them.

Also, what is the metric by which we are measuring success? Is it hive survival or kilos of honey? There are too many variables and very hard to conclude anything with one or two hives.

I was also watching a video of a beekeeper in South Australia where he gets temps in the low to mid 40s C. Still most bees that had vented lids propolised them. I get a hot flush just typing that… but then I’m not a bee.

As much as they are studied there is still a lot to discover about bees I reckon. Beekeeping is certainly not boring.

Actually that is a mistake. Should be 15 square cm or thereabouts.

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32

Perhaps, however it may also be the genetics.

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33

Of the bees or the beekeepers? Haha…

I think that beekeepers choose vents or no vents more on their own philosophy than their bees’ genetics.

I also want to really apologise to the original poster for completely derailing his thread. Sorry.

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My statement was related to the last sentence in the quote. I’ve not seen migratory lids without vents here. Do telescoping lids have vents?
As you pointed out with the Cushman link and the chimney effect. Insulating the hive will minimise condensation within the hive but the humidity remains the same. Do we want high humidity in the hive? More importantly do the bees? Will high humidity cause discolouration or degrading of the frames? (See what I did there :smirk:) probably discolouration but unlikely degradation.
If the Fframes are removed during winter this will not be an issue.

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35

It’s genetics. I have two hives next to each other, one queen is golden the other is much darker brown.

The golden ones propolise nothing, not even cracks between boxes that a gale can blow through. They are also always wet with some condensation.

The brown ones propolise anything and everything shut but they are always dry as a bone.

I’m now choosing who gets what lid on a case by case basis lol.

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Just to turn the argument upside down, couldn’t it be that those genetically inclined not to propolise prefer more humidity? Some moisture is necessary because that’s how they keep themselves hydrated I read somewhere.

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I don’t know lol, even when I seal them up they’re still wet to the point of condensation on all the hive walls. Vents or no vents they’re wet, I was told the queen was from a breeder in the Northern Territory which could have something to do with it.

I have gone from using two vents on each end of my lids to one as I don’t think they need that much airflow.

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One last comment from me before I zip up and leave everyone in peace.

One easy thing that can probably be done without much effort in winter to reduce excess moisture is to fill the void of a ventilated Flow lid with scrunched up newspapers. This will act like a quilt box without actually making one, while minimise any drought from ventilation. Just put a mesh over the inner cover hole and place the newspaper on top. Replace if/when soaked.

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39

That is a good tip and should soak up more moisture than wood shaving which is used by some wanting roof insulation for the hive.
Cheers

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You my friend are a genius. Been toying with quilt box, but getting wood chips and making a box seems like too much effort…

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