If this thread already exists, please point me in that direction!
I live in Colorado, USA with a climate where I use two brood boxes over winter, and I’ve reversed my hive bodies in the spring in the past (putting the top box on the bottom for a couple of weeks, then reversing them back to encourage the bees to use the whole space and discourage swarming).
Doing some searching online, I’m finding many folks don’t reverse hive bodies for various reasons.
How about you all? Do you reverse? Why or why not?
Keep on with this valuable box manipulation technique…especially if you plan on using two brood boxes with the Flowhive super instead of just a single brood box and the Flowhive super. And reverse the brood boxes immediately prior to placing the queen excluder and Flowhive super on. You will find the bees will store honey above the QE more readily.
It’s interesting that very few beekeepers mention this technique because what you have stated above… i.e. reasons to doing this… corresponds to my experience also. As with every bit of beekeeping advice, there are caveats. Both brood boxes shouldn’t be plugged out with honey and the queen should be in full laying mode with a population of at least 1 1/2 boxes of bees.
For my area, I find reducing two brood boxes to one brood box just prior to a significant honey flow (clover, canola, and alfalfa) simplifies my work later as the honey pulls are removed.
Also when American foulbrood is present, the scale is found mostly in the bottom box (less attended by the bees and beekeeper) by fall.
Hi @Doug1 - Thanks for the reply. To make sure I’m understanding you, you are saying yes to reversing hive bodies, and switching them back to the original order right before putting the Flow super and QE on. Is that right?
When you reduce your brood boxes to 1 before the honey flow, when do you add a second box back to ensure enough honey is stored for them for winter? This is the first I’ve heard of doing this and I’m really curious to learn more.
I had to go back through my notes. It is the frames that im not supposed to shift around. thanks for all the great information. Sunday is looking like a great day for a box flop.
Why? For a single-box system, it is the only way to operate.
Here is an example showing one approach to form a nest for winter in cold climates depending on available honey stores (black is honey). From high availability on the left to low on the right.
This way of forming the nest is quite popular as a general approach too.
Usually, the last two frames on the right are honey/pollen frames or just pollen. This way cluster is eating through the honey during winter and reaches pollen in spring when bees need it.
Yes you may reverse hive bodies…and it’s not necessary to switch them back to the original order. A healthy hive with adequate resources around will soon fill that upper brood box with brood and feed.
It’s been my experience that bees initially will avoid going through a QE…especially if there is a dome of capped honey immediately below the QE. They seem to naturally want to store more honey under that capped dome…but not above it where you want them to store it. Of course this may result in congested (honey & pollen bound) brood boxes under the QE adding the complications of swarming and a lower honey yield down the road.
So when you reverse brood boxes, the capped dome now is down lower in the hive (out of the way and where it can be consumed to feed brood) and the previous lower brood box butts up to the underside of the QE. The frames butting up against the underside of the queen excluder should look like this…no honey dome and brood right up to the top bars…not too much feed stored. It’s natural for the bees now to re-establish that honey dome above the brood but they can’t so their next option is to go above the QE. Once they get used to storing honey above a QE, you are usually set for the summer.
Once you get familiar with the honey flows in your area, you can time your honey removals so that just before the last honey flow the second brood box is on. But you are dealing with the randomness of nature so even the most experienced beekeeper will misjudge the timing of later honey flows…if they exist at all. Remember you have the option of wintering in one brood box. In any case, be prepared to supplement feed your hive in the fall…whether using one or two brood boxes.
Still really new to beekeeping. We use a double brood chamber here. I will have to find where i was reading on here to know all the details. But i have in my notes. "Dont shift frame direction or position. " can’t remeber exactly but i recall that the bees have paths they have made between frames for travel and air flow. there was also somthing showing a diagram of adding a second brood box and moving some of the frames up. Its possible i read it wrong but everyone was saying not to do it. The bees will fill that area when they are ready. I dont really know personally, just going off of what i read.
I super happy about this thread. I needed this information and didnt even know it.
This is true, but applies mainly to when you are lifting out frames for inspection - it’s best to make sure you replace frames in the original order and position, unless you have a specific goal such as what @Doug1 and @ABB describe. Those goals are of course always within healthy parameters for the bees and seasonal context.
Well thats good to know. I dont feel so bad now.
I have been being super meticulous during inspections to make sure i put it all back exactly the same. Was starting to think i do it all ocd like for no good reason. So my brain isnt broken. I did see marking frames position and direction.
Thanks so much @Doug1! Very helpful to get your input and experience here. I’m feeling like going down to 1 brood box feels like a gamble for me…I’d be afraid I’d misjudge the flow timing. Maybe I’ll pay attention this year and think about it for the future.
I appreciate your thoughts on the reversing hive bodies - we’re going to have a beautiful warm weekend so I’m looking forward to getting into the hive.
Yeah, that is as far as I can go with that answer. More experience would give you the answers you need. All I can think of is what type of bee do you have? How strong is the hive coming out of winter? Other than that, I have no idea.
It hadnt crossed my mind until that very moment. Did a little reading about year 2. Apparently it’s a hold on to your britches year. Looks like a great year to try the hive body swap. Was looking closer at the weather and will most likely be trying this monday. Trees are in full bloom here and many more to come, very soon. no swarms.
@Eva and @Doug1 mainly covered the idea. We do something for a specific purpose. That is where many “how-to” books have a weak point. They describe seasonal works but rarely give enough information about how this particular step is helping to achieve a specific goal. What fundamental rules it is exploiting to have an effect? Still, these books are useful for beginners to get a grasp on techniques but fundamental knowledge (bee biology) is still necessary.
Speaking about double brood chambers. What I was talking about is single vs multiple box beekeeping systems. Single box - it is a time of 12-frame Dadant hives where frames were larger too. It is a literary single box thing where bees are being kept, honey harvested from, (+supers if there is a serious nectar flow), winter nest reduction done by removing frames. This system is still alive and kicking for those who use horizontal hives. Dadant hives themselves lost popularity because they are still not large enough to handle strong colonies but large enough to break beekeepers’ backs if used for multiple box system. Plus later it was found that bees can achieve better thermoregulation on shorter Langstroth FD frames. From there, beekeepers went back to Langstroth hives Dadant meant to replace with his system. But to compensate even smaller size of the Langstroth box, a multi-box system was introduced. One of the advantages is the ability to do manipulations not using separate frames but whole boxes. That is where are you at the moment. You don’t need to form a winter nest as in the pictures a have posted above. You may simply put a box of honey frames on top of your brood box (ideally with frames of pollen on sides) for wintering and walk away. Come spring, the lower box will be empty and your nest will be in the warmer top box where the food was. It is still warmer there and the colony will be reluctant to move down for a while. To force them to use available space you will reverse boxes and the queen will move up to the warmer part again to start laying.
But, as we already know from the authors above, there are those pesky caveats and limitations. If you are willing to precipitate, can you tell what do you think may prevent you from reversing the boxes? We were talking warmth and thermal regulation in the long boring post above
Under my circumstances, queens run out of fertilized eggs after 1 1/3 seasons and are then replaced… and in this part of the world, young queens swarm much less than over wintered queens.
i dont really know.
thanks for all the great information. Sunday is looking like a great day for a box flop.
no swarms.