First off - Thanks to all, we had a successful first season with the bees (Saskatraz), even got a pretty good harvest and all seems well. I had posted a few months ago re:burr/cross comb, killing brood and all the woes of a first timer and you guided me through - thanks! I’ll post some harvest picks at the bottom of the post.
So, I’m in the San Francisco bay area and I’ve been reading from a lot of SoCal people, we have very similar climates etc. My plan is to remove the super, which seems to be advised and come spring* add a 2nd brood box so that 1) I get an even bigger harvest and 2) avoid a swarm for another year as I assess my options. Here are my questions:
What exactly is the process for removing the super? Obviously I don’t mean physically but:
-I assume I should harvest whatever is left in it, so it is “empty” first?
Once this is done and I remove the super from the hive how exactly do I…get all the bees back into the brood box? Do I just set it aside near the brood box and the bees will return before the night and then during the night remove the super to another location?
I am going to ask about super (FlowHive) maintenance in a separate post after searching and reading some more.
Once the super is off, the above items have been addressed and the hive is sealed up…
*When is the best time to add the second brood box? Early Spring?
Should I consider adding a second super when the bees are ready next spring?
I only ask about the second super as I do not have the physical space to add a second separate hive.
Here are some harvest pics. Was really fun, and super cool to think all this happened in 4.5 months and I had absolutely no idea what I was doing. Thanks again all!
My concern is what have you left for the bees to overwinter with? The photo shows one brood box and one recently harvested super. This is not a good situation to end summer with.
The bees need honey to survive winter. A good strategy for Flow hives is to give them an ideal super or two for their stores before adding the Flow super in spring. If there’s no nectar flow on at the moment, you can feed them sugar syrup until they fill the ideal.
A good method to remove harvested supers is to put the inner cover with the hole open above the ideal, then an empty deep above the inner cover, then the Flow super on top. This setup allows the bees to “rob” the remaining honey from the Flow frames and store it in the ideal and brood box. Then you can either remove the clean Flow super and empty deep to store, or close the inner cover hole, remove the empty deep and leave the Flow super on for the winter.
The population drops over winter, so there’s plenty of room in the brood box to house them. Double brood management won’t necessarily increase honey yield. They just store more in the outer frames in the brood area and if the population increases, they eat more.
For now, make sure they have enough food for winter and do your pre winter mite management.
Thanks Mike! So, I asked this originally because many overwintering posts and articles mention removing the super specifically.
I do not need to do this then? It seems like not as our “winter” rarely gets below 40 degrees F at night. However as to the article above it states I should remove it and store it, frames wrapped in plastic…so I’m a little confused. Good news, In addition to the honey they have in the brood box, the harvested Flowhive super was only harvested 5 of 7 frames. They have 2 full frames left - somewhere between 3 and 4 liters. I’ll be honest, this having been my first year AND given the above about removing the super I had originally thought what they have in the brood box and me feeding them as needed would have been enough. I will play it safe and leave the 2 unharvested frames for the bees.
So to recap:
-Leave the super on, do not harvest final two frames OR per the article: harvest the last two frames and remove the super. See 3rd point below…
-Given the timing - order, build and have ready an ideal box (for NEXT seasons’ end) and an additional brood/super.
-Check on them throughout the fall and winter and supplement feed (syrup/pollen/etc) as needed.
-Come spring, observe for the population boom and add the second brood box.
-Observe for the nectar flow and when secondary brood box is full/ready add the second super/ideal box.
I’ve seen people talking about double brood boxes and double supers…Am I getting a bit silly here with a 2xbrood, 2xsuper, 1xideal setup? I appreciate your advise!
I would lift the frames in the Flow super, and empty those which are at least 80% capped on the hive. Then leave the super on for a couple of days for bees to clean up the empty cells, before lifting off the super.
There are many ways to clear the Flow super of bees. I use a one way way bee escape, because I have one and used it for traditional beekeeping. However, others have had a lot of success with taking the super off near the end of the day (very late afternoon), moving it a bit away from the hive (at least 10 feet) and then going back after dark to put it in a honey shed or kitchen. Any remaining bees can be brushed off. There shouldn’t be that many as the evenings cool down. Be careful with using a flashlight though, guard bees will go straight for it!
I usually harvest uncapped frames off the hive, because they can have quite big leaks. Having said that, I have never had more than about 100ml maximum, but if any spills, this time of year a robbing frenzy is likely to start, and you really don’t want that!
Probably, but time/month doesn’t matter as much as what your hive is doing. I always use the same criteria for adding ANY box (brood or super). The previous box(es) must be at least 80% drawn comb, 80% full of brood or food (honey/pollen) and totally covered with bees. Simple is good
Why do you need a second super? You can empty any full frames from the existing super, and let the bees refill them. If they are not capping them, and weather is humid, I do add a medium langstroth on top, but you could add a second Flow super if you wanted. I have never done that - didn’t have enough nectar flow or cash flow to justify a double Flow super setup!
In Australia from Sydney northwards, leaving Flow supers on throughout the year is no problem. We have nectar flows almost year round. In a cold climate where the winter is long with no opportunity for bees to bring in fresh supplies it’s not so good.
The cluster of bees will move up as they consume honey. If they move up to the Flow super, the queen will be stuck below the excluder and die. So you can remove the excluder allowing her to stay with the cluster. But then she might start laying eggs in the Flow frames. Very messy.
My previous description wasn’t about leaving the Flow super on as a functional super, but isolating it from the bees with the inner cover and storing the empty super above the inner cover. This is done by people low on storage space.
Two frames of honey isn’t ideal. There’s a lot of empty space that will be heated by rising air from the cluster. That’s lost energy. Bees do much better “closed down” for winter with a super full of honey. Honey insulates.
My choice would be to use the last of the season to replace the Flow super with an ideal so they can draw out the comb and fill it before winter. You might have a fall flow to help them, otherwise feed until they stop taking it. A full ideal gives them a solid chance to make it to spring.
Thank you @Dawn_SD , this was along my line of original thinking exactly, but please comment on Mikes ideas as well as now I’m a bit confused/scared. That said, given my responses to him, I think I can be vigilant and attend to the needs of the bees until next spring. I.e, they have SOME honey in the brood box and when the time arrives/if it does, I begin to supplement all the varies needs, as needed.
To your question about why add a second super…I’ve been reading, and I think (I’m probably wrong) that the bees only do “one harvest” - I think I saw I saw you post about this (again probably wrong). Maybe this is where I’m getting mixed up. Logically, if the nectar is flowing, they gather and store and cap, and we harvest and continue in that cycle until nectar is not flowing and then we stop, right? Meaning no, it is not a “one and done”.
So let me re-adjust here. Given our super(ha) mild weather year round here in CA:
-Harvest any frames over 80%
-Crack all remaining frames? And let the bees reclaim?
-Approach late afternoon and remove the super, set aside 10+ feet away
-Return at night and remove super to suitable working location, remove remaining bees and set by hive entrance, store super as indicated in article.
-Hunker down for fall and winter. Continue reading, learning and performing the maintenance (all that it entails) until spring
-Assess as needed, add second brood box.
Additional questions:
If above is approved, when exactly do I do this super removal? Weather is still warm/mild for us and while nectar “boom” is over our neighbors tree is seriously going crazy (will upload pic tomorrow).
Clarify: “I usually harvest uncapped frames off the hive, because they can have quite big leaks. Having said that, I have never had more than about 100ml maximum, but if any spills, this time of year a robbing frenzy is likely to start, and you really don’t want that!” - I assume this means from…in the brood box?
What about this “ideal” super? Too late for this season, but good idea for next overwintering? I can’t see the harm, but interested in your opinion.
To translate Australian into American, an ideal is approximately the same size as a US Langstroth medium box - the same size that I suggested to go on top of the Flow super to encourage capping in humid weather
I needed that. I know it’s late for us, so I’ll wait on the rest. If I can get the ideal (medium) box in time, when could/should I add this. IF I cannot get it here in time, leave the super as is, or harvest and cap the hive (again…when?) for winter?
I don’t add them with double brood. However, if I had single brood and the nectar flow was not going to last much longer, I would add it when I took the Flow super off, after the main flow for the year. For me, that is early to mid July.
I would harvest the capped frames now. Then take off the super and harvest the uncapped frames indoors in about 3 days time (to give the bees time to clean up the super). If your brood box is really packed with food (<20% empty cells on the frames), you may want to put a medium on top of the brood box. Do not leave the Flow super on over winter. You will regret it, trust me…
@Dawn_SD This is what I needed. I will have more questions…sorry. But I will proceed with what seems like the clear plan. Question - They are starting to harvest more, not like it was, like “WOW” from empty to full, but again, I mention my neighbors tree. So: In our “area”…When should I do this super removal? We’re pretty in line with you in So-Cal.
We have plants in bloom in San Diego at this point, but not much nectar flow, as we haven’t had significant rain for months. The bees still try the plants for nectar, and they also gather pollen. I have already taken my supers off.
If they don’t have enough honey in a single brood box, then you will have to feed them over winter. Knowing when to feed is a bit of an art, which is why I would always recommend new California beekeepers to fill double brood boxes, before adding a super. But here you are, so what to do now? Well, I would still take off the Flow super now, unless they are actively filling it.
Assess what they have in the brood box. You can feed their own honey, or 2:1 (or I prefer 5:3) white sugar to water syrup to them, using an in-hive feeder, until the night temps reach 55°F. Then you need to switch to fondant, dry sugar or winter patties. Make sure that they are winter patties though, you don’t want so much protein in them that you stimulate brood production at this time of year.
Some people use a hive scale to decide when to top up feeding over winter. This is a great tool, although they can be quite expensive. The other ways are to heft the hive, or to pick a sunny winter day with no wind and very quickly lift out an edge frame (where the honey usually is). Close up the hive again ASAP - bees are very challenged by being chilled over winter. If the frames are empty, or the hive is light, obviously they need more food
Thanks @aussiemike ! I am going to start planning for next year and harvest the flow super totally, reserving the honey to feed the bees needed and come round next year go with a double brood and ideal. Getting there…slowly =).
@Dawn_SD , looks like they are in fact continuing to fill the super, which surprised me a little. So I’ll get a second go round (harvest) before I take it off.
I needed that. I know it’s late for us, so I’ll wait on the rest. If I can get the ideal (medium) box in time, when could/should I add this. IF I cannot get it here in time, leave the super as is, or harvest and cap the hive (again…when?) for winter?