Perth (WA, AU) Flowhives and honey flow

[AdamMaskew]

I moved the Manley Long Lang to here -

Manley Long Lang - Modifications & Building Bee Hives - Flow Forum (honeyflow.com)

[Detto]

And we’re officially on in Glen Forrest!

Corymbia Calophylla

Bonus shot, Grevillea - Moonlight

[skeggley]

I’m seeing the same a little south of you, the odd tree here and there in bloom with others covered in buds. Hopefully they won’t be dry buds.
Now it’s cooled down a bit I’ve been emptying honey buckets and will be draining all the Flow frames again in preparation.
Hopefully I’ll need another bulk buy of honey tubs.

[ABB]

In my area, I am seeing some trees flowering here and there but the vast majority are still in buds

[Detto]

And just like that… it begins!

It took exactly 121 days, 33m and 54s for the girls to deposit the first drop of nectar in the ff super! but seriously who’s counting?

MARRI… you beauty!

[Detto]

False alarm guys! I think it’s just water?!

I went back out there to observe for probably the 7th time today and just so happened to witness the bees slurp it all up and bugger off! All that liquid in the cells above is now gone.

Oh honey, I’ve been duped!

[AdamMaskew]

It is likely to be nectar, but doesn’t look like Marri nectar to me. Bees will usually fill the center of the frames first and the outside edge last, or not at all, for me. Quite often they will use nearby cells to “dump” nectar and then move it later to a fuller cell.

It is likely they started to fill your cells up a few weeks ago…

Adam

[skeggley]

I’ve been sampling the flowers and aren’t finding much nectar inside of at all. A few years ago the road was wet beneath the trees. Still early I know…

[Detto]

I agree mate, it doesn’t look like Marri nectar to me either and I’ve never seen it before!

I remember a while ago reading somewhere on here that someone noticed the bees depositing water in the flow frame cells and posted a photo… I’ll try find it.

Ah here it is:

Bees in extreme heat

Here’s a couple of pics which show the importance of having a good supply of water close and handy for the girls. This is a brand new super which hasn’t been on this young colony for long. I have noticed how they put water in the cells on hot days. It’s clearly visible as water in a brand new frame but hard to distinguish from nectar in previously used frames. [IMG_20210110_192640] [IMG_20210110_184259] [IMG_20210110_184244]

This took me a good while to find digging through the archives and yes you are right! @JeffH makes the same call back in Jan '21 and you even liked it too!

@JeffH

I would argue that they’re storing nectar/honey in the honey cells. One of the colors of honey is white, on the extreme end of the light colored honey, which looks almost like water.

They certainly do deposit water, however I don’t believe it’s in the honey cells. They deposit it in the passage ways so they can fan over it in order to evaporate it, in the cooling process.

Ah bugger but then old mates ready to take a punt on it and big @JeffH weighs the odds and then agrees that it is indeed water?!

@TimG

If was a betting man I would load up on this one. We’re in a real dearth at the moment and also it only ever happens on days over 38deg. there is absolutely no colour to it whatsoever. I don’t want to open the hive to confirm when they are already working hard to maintain the temp. Last night by the time it had cooled back to 30 deg there was no sign of the water anymore. So my conclusion at this point is water. ( My wife has informs me that I have been wrong before though).

@JeffH

You’re probably right Tim, especially seeing that it was gone by the end of the day. I learned something new today. They must store it to use later on as water becomes scarce, especially seeing as they can’t gather it after dark. I see bees at my water chestnut plants really gulping it down when it’s hot.

People often ask me how the bees cope during hot weather. It’s hard to answer the question without going into great detail. I guess the short answer would be “they cope well as long as they have access to water”.

In regards to filling ff, going off photos I’ve noticed there’s no set rule in where the girls start. Coincidently while searching for the above I stumbled upon Jacky Boys photo of his flow frame:

I added the flow hive and that's what happened

Just in case anyone is really worried- here is what our bees had done in around 3 weeks time- and we didn’t do anything to the flow frames other than install them when the hive was booming: [image] [image]

Cheers @Semaphore (P.S. I’m originally from Adelaide too btw )

It clearly shows where they worked from outside-in. So therefore there is a possibility that it is nectar but then if they did ‘dump’ it there, why would they move it again if it’s actually the fullest cell?

I am 99.9% certain that in the last 4 days they had not stored anything in the flow frame cells as I have been checking religiously. Today was the first time I noticed and I believe it’s to do with the fact I recently made same major HVAC changes which I’ll post a topic about later and unfortunately the Marri flow is just a coincidental convenience.

Because of this, I personally think it’s water. They didn’t do this before the changes I made

Skeggers do you have a refractometer we can borrow so we can nip this in the bud? I have one for salinity I use for my marine tanks. Will that suffice for our purposes @ABB?

[Detto]

I’m with you mr Skeggley Greggley! (I hope you don’t mind the nicknames, I’ve knocked back a coupla cold ones tonight )

I too have been testing the buds periodically and they’re dry, albeit only one tree and closest to the hive.

It made me wonder though how often and when do the flowers produce nectar?

Well who else but none other than WA’s very own Joseph Banks aka @busso answered:

@busso

I do not see honey flow is an incorrect term to use. Nectar does not flow (I am sure there are exceptions) it is replenished usually nightly. If somebody like I me goes to a Eucalyptus blossom and licks out the nectar there is no flow to replenish it. The nectar is replenished usually on a schedule. On the other hand when flowering is prolific the bees create a honey flow, from the nectar and this lovely stuff is stashed away in frames.

Well that’s my take and I’m sticking by honey flow.

And to also confirm I also used the wise local @Wandjina’s bush knowledge!

@Wandjina

An easy and sure way to know whether the eucalypts have nectar is to observe bird activity rather than bee activity. The Marris on my property are in flower and full of bees, but they are mostly gathering pollen.

Once they have nectar in a few days time, the honey eaters like the Brown and Singing Honeyeater and Red Wattlebirds move in and can be seen feeding on the flowers. Then I know there is nectar.

Yup, these old sentinels fire blanks too!

[AdamMaskew]

I’m seeing early signs of a marri flow starting @skeggley. The trees have been partially flowering for a few weeks with no weight change. I was told to look for the first dew point for them to start to produce nectar which occurred this year last week and since then I’ve started to see the hives holding weight or some of them starting to have small daily weight gains. In the last couple of days these 500gish rises have increased to 1kgish rises.

Wise advice from Stan “Historically the main flow has started within a couple of days either way of 7 February.” Stan started as a migratory bee keeper in the 60s and now in his 90s still has some hives at his property Midlandish. I think he will be on the money again this year.
For me the mainflow will be signalled when daily weight gains of +1.5kg are recorded.

[skeggley]

@Detto

I’m with you mr Skeggley Greggley! (I hope you don’t mind the nicknames, I’ve knocked back a coupla cold ones tonight )

Only a couple? The Gman doubled that.
I think we all know our endemic flora is opportunistic and that just because there’s pollen it doesn’t mean nectar but the only time (Since keeping bees) I’ve seen the large quantity of buds on the red gum was 2018 I think.

@AdamMaskew

look for the first dew point for them to start to produce nectar

You mean the first cool morning we see dew on the ground? (All temperatures have dew points) This makes sense as it would make the nectar more available provided the nectar was there in the first place. Duly noted.
7th Feb also noted.

So much good info on this forum thanks all.

[AdamMaskew]

@skeggley

You mean the first cool morning we see dew on the ground?

Yes I should have said dew point was reached. My vehicle was wet with dew.

[ABB]

@Detto

I have one for salinity I use for my marine tanks. Will that suffice for our purposes @ABB?

Is it the one that shows Specific Gravity and is graded from 1.000 to 1.070? If it is, the scale does not even approach the SG of honey (~1.45). You need something that works with heavier liquids. Check ebay for “honey refractometer”. It is 58-92% Brix meter but with a convenient percentage of water scale. It gives “at glance” results which is more convenient than attempting to convert SG to water % They are under $30 there.

The scale looks like this:

I would buy one that comes with a calibration block and oil or buy them separately. It is a cheap instrument, but cheap AND uncalibrated instruments give me fits

[Detto]

Yeah bugger it is. I just ordered the correct one but will have to wait.

What about a Ph test? If honey is approx 3.3 - 5.5 and if I get a reading around 7, would it be safe to say it’s water?

@ABB

It is a cheap instrument, but cheap AND uncalibrated instruments give me fits

Haha yeah I feel you on that one. All my marine parameter checkers are HANNA and digital

45L @ 0.043ppm phosphate

[Detto]

Hey just thought of another idea! If I were to collect a sample and let it evaporate on a dish and if there is an absence of residual sugar crystals would that therefore mean it was water?

[ABB]

How about a good ol’ lick test?

[Detto]

Haha @ABB the ideas man!

So I managed to collect a sample.

I got approx 0.1ml worth:

Upon closer inspection consistency is fairly runny and taste has a very slight sweet tinge.

100% debunked. It is not water.

Ding, ding, ding! Congratulations @AdamMaskew you have just won yourself a pack of 100 - 6Gx30mm Timber Screws!

If you’re ever up Mundaring way, feel free to swing past and claim your prize, I’ll even throw in a cold beer

Also thanks @ABB, both you two have helped me open the door to so many more questions to read up on. Cheers

[ABB]

@Detto

taste has a very slight sweet tinge

Hmm, slightly… Now, to make it more interesting let’s throw in a story

In 1928 Ludwig Armbruster fed to bees 56-58% sugar syrup and counted cells bees used to place it. The number was 9800. After processing and capping, it took only 3500 cells. So, at this concentration bees need roughly 3 times more cells to concentrate the syrup before it became a final product. The process of concentration takes approx. 5 days for the bulk of the syrup. From here you can take a calculator and play. Don’t forget that they need to store the final product somewhere

To make life a bit easier, here is some data for 12-frame FD super. How long does it take to fill it in at different “flow” rates. 50% sugar syrup used as a starting point.

kg of syrup per day	Days to fill super
0.5	74.9
1	35.5
2	15.8
3	9.9
4	6

The table breaks here because at bigger flow, one needs to remove not fully process syrup (less than 6 days) or add another super. Or let the rest of the flow go. You may adjust numbers for a 7-frame super. Throw in some index for “a very slight sweet tinge” instead of 50% of sugar and have a ballpark weight of nectar per day 7-frame super may handle in a good steady flow. Have something to wipe tears before starting calculations

[Detto]

Haha geez I don’t know whether to laugh or cry!

Some is better than none I guess!

Time to invest in scales