Ok no worries. I never said the problem is the super being stuck to the broodbox. It’s the flow frames stuck to the excluder at the bottom which makes them tricky to get out because there is no slack in the flow super, unlike the brood box. I don’t want to lever too much and break something.
Looking for a practical long term solution of course, not destroying the super and uncapped honey.
Anyway, I’m in Brabham, so I’ll send the guy in mundaring a buzz if I can find out how. He’s the closest I think. Thanks very much for the help, much appreciated.
As with any frame in a super the bees will build comb from the frame to the excluder regardless if it is a Flow Frame or a conventional frame. You have seen a video of how to go about removing a Flow Frame and had advice from many here as well how to go about it.
A Flow Frame isn’t made of glass, it would be extremely rare if you were to break one, I have never heard of it happening. My thinking is that it is the propolis that is holding the frame and not the comb between the frame and the excluder.
If you haven’t the confidence to remove the frame then having someone who has a Flow Hive show you how to do it is a way forward. Selling the Flow hive and setting up a conventional hive when the bees will build comb down to the excluder and will propolize the frames around the lugs, well what then?
I just had @Wandjina coming over to show me how to take the flow frames off for inspection. He came armed with a long screwdriver and a breadknife, scared me at first lol.
I’m so grateful, no extra tools were needed at the end and Olly was able to break them free with just the hive tool. I wasn’t applying enough force at the right place. He also gave me some tips like taking the rear door off when putting the frames back so the bees escape and won’t get squashed.
I’m even more glad because one frame is 100% capped and ready for harvest, and the rest are on the right track.
Also been told that @skeggley is actually a nice guy, so apologies for taking your comment the wrong way mate.
Once again, thank you for all your help, especially @Wandjina for taking his time to come over, and didn’t take any payment. Appreciated.
A good result in the end, hope you also took a frame out yourself so you know it can be done with a little leverage and care.
Thanks to Olly too for making the time and effort.
Cheers
After hearing all the grim stories on the news, bushfires, floods, climate change, corona virus etc… it is good to read a story with a great outcome. Makes my day. Well done all.
I honestly think he’s one of the best ones around here, but I also thought his dry comment was a joke and over the top for this particular situation.
I am a face to face kind of person and often misread the gist of a post. And others misread mine. Hate social media, but for my location it’s a good way to communicate.
Actually- when the frames are heavily attached to the QX below and with bridge comb this can be VERY difficult. When you go to lift the entire box- the brood box below can lift off the base- or worse the brood frames can lift up out of the brood box. That can cause a lot of disturbance. If you do do it- twist the box before you lift to break the comb!
In a case like the Humpty’s it is really very advisable to remove at least half the flow frames first- or at least loosen them.
And that’s not too hard- it just takes practice. You need to have a hive tool with the J hook- not an American hive tool (which are horrible if you ask me). You use the same method as with regular frames to lever up one end of the flow frames. If they are very stuck try and do it when the temperature is as warm as possible as the wax will be softer. You can remove the piece of wood at the back end so you can use the flat blade end of the tool there as Jeff said. Remove at least half the flow frames and put them in a spare box to the side. Loosen the others and then you can lift and twist the box. You can use the hive tool to pry the QX away from the bottom of the box as well. This is important to stop the brood frames from lifting up if they are waxed to the QX. If you don’t already have one- ditch your plastic QX and get a metal one. Plastic ones get waxed on more and are no good for a variety of reasons.
I strongly reccomend the Flow consider selling hives with metal QX’s and not plastic! Add the extra few dollars on to the cost if you have to - but it’s better for the bees and the environment. Plastic QX’s are GARBAGE waiting to happen. If you try and pry a plastic QX from the bottom of a box all that will happen is that the edges will come loose but also possibly crack (releasing microplastics) - whilst the centre will remain welded to the bottom of the flow frames and the brood frames below. This can really create a problematic situation for the inexperienced. Twisting helps but can kill bees and cause them to become defensive and unhappy. It happened to me in my first year with a flow hive- exactly like Humpty. Since I have had all metal QX’s I have not had this issue.
Cannot agree more with that. I don’t think the QX supplied with Flow hives are even UV treated.
My hives are in full sun and within months, the edges of mine all got brittle, and frayed, and broke with the hive tool. They also sag. They went in the recycle bin but doubt they get recycled.
For the couple of dollars difference in price, I do for stainless steel, not galvanised. I think plastic QX’s are meant to be disposable, which doesn’t match the ethos of Flow.
I have passed on this feedback before, but have been advised that our decision to use plastic queen excluders is not about cost (if it were we could at least do them as an optional add on - keep in mind we are keen to supply a premium product, not cut corners).
The decision to supply plastic queen excluders is because we have found them gentler on the bees.
I know there are some customers who would prefer metal queen excluders, but at this stage my understanding is that we are not looking to change them. Sorry
I totally agree with you and @Semaphore about the plastic QX’s. When I got my Flow Hives the excluders were put in the recycle bin straight away. I have had enough experience with the plastic ones over the years that I would rather trust my mother-in-law.
As for the story they are gentler on bees Flow should have a look at the metal ones V the plastic under a microscope and they will find even the gal ones are smoother than the plastic with the stainless steel wire ones way better again.
If the plastic is gentler on the bees it is strange that all the commercial bee keeper I know are happy to pay the extra for a metal QX, I wonder why? Sorry Free, but that pill is too big for me to swallow.
Cheers
if you could expound on that I’d appreciate it- because I am pretty sure I found the exact opposite. The plastic excluders warp. This means when you place on on a box- it doesn’t necessarily sit flush all the way around. Bees start to run under the gaps: you place a super on… Squash! Also- bees tend to put more wax into them. Cleaning that off takes time- it’s much harder to punch out all the holes than run a tool through a metal excluder and all that extends inspection times. Not good for bees- brood could get chilled .
You can’t put the plastic excluder in the solar wax melter to clean them either. Also they get more stuck to flow frames and brood frames below- much more wax = more squashed bees=more aggression . They can be detached from the boxes at the edges- but still stuck to the bottoms and tops of frames- you cannot pry them off evenly with the hive tool. This can kill a lot of bees if you lift up a super and the QX and brood frames start lifting up with it. Even worse the brood box lifts off the base board. This happened to me once and killed a lot of bees.
Also the edges are sharper than rounded edges on metal- and less surface area for the bees to get through- so my guess is more damaging to wings etc? Finally: they become brittle and powdery at the edges- they then crack easily with the hive tool- more chance of a queen getting up into the flow frames- and micro plastic in the hives andhoney?
I can’t see one positive. except maybe cost- but that’s a false positive as they don’t last long at all.
It may that were Flow is- the UV light is not a severe as here in SA. But I have found plastic excluders deteriorate rapidly at the edges here. They are no good. Of this I am sure.
Hi Free, I agree with the others. When you say “we have found them gentler on the bees”. Is that your personal experience?
You’ll find that after a period of 18-24 months, you’ll be agreeing with the views of the majority on this forum.
You don’t want the queen up above the QE laying eggs in the flow frames. Especially if you’re going to rely on the view from the back panel to determine when to harvest the honey. In other words: if you’re not going to physically check the frames before harvesting the honey.
I have 2 clients, both brothers with flow hives. They have both had the queen above the QE on account of the dodgy plastic QEs. Here is the result of one.
The wet appearance is a result of hive beetles. The white bits in the lower photo is hive beetle eggs. As you can see in the top photo, the queen got busy laying eggs in the flow frames. Two days before these photos were taken, the client harvested the honey, naturally without first physically checking the frames.
cheers
At a wholesale level, the cost difference is fairly negligible.
I have been advised that both were tested extensively and the plastic was found to be less harmful to the bees. They are also lightweight, flexible, and not prone to temperature fluctuations. In light of our extensive testing on this we are not intending on supplying metal queen excluders at this stage.
I realise there are some strong differences of opinion on this, and as we use Langstroth sizing for our hives, you should not find them difficult to obtain if you would prefer to use a metal QE and wish to source one elsewhere.
Thanks for your understanding.
@JeffH No I have not personally used the metal - but I trust Cedar on it and have had no concerns about using the plastic one. The majority of my colleagues keep bees, some have done so for many years, and I am not aware of any of them using metal QEs, so I personally am happy to use the one provided.
Mine only lasted months in the WA sun. They are not UV stabilised. They went to landfill. Is that waste something Flow endorses?
I bought generic stainless steel ones as replacements and if I run my hand over them they a lot smoother than plastic ones supplied. How exactly they are gentler on the bees please?
I see you have one hive. Just take a note of when you put the QE into service, then see how long it lasts.
You mentioned strong “differences of opinion”, just take a look at the photos I posted. Those photos go way beyond “strong differences of opinion”. Those photos are a result of the QE cracking on both sides before opening up, thus allowing the queen to pass through one of them.
I’m just adding my 2 bobs worth for the sake of future flow customers & their bees. It doesn’t affect me what QE you supply.
@Wandjina I am not aware of any formal study on it. The decision was made in house before I started. Sorry. As I said, you are welcome to use whichever type you prefer. We will continue to produce hives that use the plastic excluders. We specifically make all of our hives to Langstroth sizing to allow people who have different preferences to purchase optional components in different styles or materials should they wish to do so. With regards to the issue with your QE, we now specifically use UV resistant plastic, I am not sure when you purchased yours, but if you had an issue with it you are very welcome to email us to request a replacement.
Hi @JeffH, Thank you for your opinion and feedback. As one of our most frequent contributors to the forum and a very experienced beekeeper we do give a lot of weight to your opinions, it’s definitely worth well more than 2 bob to us My own experience around this issue is non existent - I have never used a metal excluder and have not kept bees for long enough to see any issues with the plastic one (I currently do not have a hive - I lost it to AFB and am now waiting for my small baby to get a bit bigger before setting my new one up). However I do have access to some extremely experienced beekeepers and several hives at the office, and will keep an eye on how the queen excluders in all of our hives here fare over time. So far they seem fine - some of them have been in use for some years now. I promise you all I have been passing on your wishes to see a metal excluder included. We do listen to customer feedback and made many tweaks to the design in direct response to customer requests when we created the Flow Hive 2. Unfortunately for those of you who prefer them, the inclusion of a metal excluder was one suggestion that was decided against - I guess it is not possible to please everybody. So at this point these are not part of our product range and we have no plans to introduce them. I want you to understand that you have been heard and your preference noted. However, that not withstanding, the decision was to continue with the plastic QE. This issue has come up a number of times now and I have passed your comments on each time… so at this stage I am very sorry but I am not sure what else I can tell you except that our hives will fit a metal one if you would prefer to purchase one of those.
Hi Free, thanks for taking notice of my comments & your kind words. Sorry to read of your colony’s demise.
I only have one flow hive, the flow super is sitting on top of a cupboard. I have no intention of purchasing a flow hive, therefore it matters not to me which excluder you supply to your customers. However when people come to me for bees to put into their flow hives, I can only show them the results of what happens when the plastic QE fails. Then it’s their choice whether they want to continue with the plastic one that will surely fail in around 2 years or purchase a metal one that will last many years.
Hi freebee if the issue has come up a number of times, there must be a good reason. It is sounding a bit like marketing spin and I hope there’s no change in course for the stellar customer service Flow had in the past.
What’s wrong with at least giving your customers an option: plastic or stainless steel, Or none at all and they will buy their own so no plastic goes to waste unnecessarily?
You said you made extensive testing and found them beneficial for bees, but have nothing to show for it. Now you also said the ones at the office ( I assume in use outside) “seem fine - some of them have been in use for some years now.” How many years do you expect them to last? Mine didn’t make it a full 12 months. What doesn’t get degraded by the sun get broken by the hive tool. And they sag, and they are difficult to clean etc…
I have enough Flow hives so won’t be buying more. What annoys me is the waste, as @Semaphore says.
I also think it would be great if Flow can have someone with beekeeping experience active on the forum, not just marketing.
That was happening on the middle frames. @Wandjina did in fact recommend to ditch the plastic excluder and get a metal one, so I’m getting one later this week.
Mine has been in use less than six weeks and the corners are already broken, probably my fault.
Did some research on plastic vs metal, and couldn’t find anyone recommending them, except for their cheap price.
Also- bees tend to put more wax into them. Cleaning that off takes time- it’s much harder to punch out all the holes than run a tool through a metal excluder and all that extends inspection times. Not good for bees- brood could get chilled 
.
. They can be detached from the boxes at the edges- but still stuck to the bottoms and tops of frames- you cannot pry them off evenly with the hive tool. This can kill a lot of bees if you lift up a super and the QX and brood frames start lifting up with it. Even worse the brood box lifts off the base board. This happened to me once and killed a lot of bees.
Finally: they become brittle and powdery at the edges- they then crack easily with the hive tool- more chance of a queen getting up into the flow frames- and micro plastic in the hives and honey 
?
My own experience around this issue is non existent - I have never used a metal excluder and have not kept bees for long enough to see any issues with the plastic one (I currently do not have a hive - I lost it to AFB and am now waiting for my small baby to get a bit bigger before setting my new one up). However I do have access to some extremely experienced beekeepers and several hives at the office, and will keep an eye on how the queen excluders in all of our hives here fare over time. So far they seem fine - some of them have been in use for some years now. I promise you all I have been passing on your wishes to see a metal excluder included. We do listen to customer feedback and made many tweaks to the design in direct response to customer requests when we created the Flow Hive 2. Unfortunately for those of you who prefer them, the inclusion of a metal excluder was one suggestion that was decided against - I guess it is not possible to please everybody. So at this point these are not part of our product range and we have no plans to introduce them. I want you to understand that you have been heard and your preference noted. However, that not withstanding, the decision was to continue with the plastic QE. This issue has come up a number of times now and I have passed your comments on each time… so at this stage I am very sorry but I am not sure what else I can tell you except that our hives will fit a metal one if you would prefer to purchase one of those.