Hi Rodd, I make doubly sure they are honeybees. It’s only in recent times I’ve collected swarms, mainly because I’m able to sell colonies. I found out in the early years that the time I spent chasing swarms could be better spent preventing my own from swarming.
I’ve never had anyone get a bit cross when I turned up, mainly when I tell them I’m not interested in going out to collect their swarm. They start telling me how bees are in trouble. We need more bees. Then I put it on them, I ask them if they want to keep bees, I offer to help them get started. They quickly decline.
The other issue with chasing swarms is: sometimes the swarm will move on shortly after you take the call. That’s happened to me a few times.
Couldn’t agree more, there’s nothing like collecting your own bees back . I like think I do everything possibly to prevent them swarming but the odd hive will go anyway. After they swarm, if I manage to get them back, they go into a Nuc and then are recombined with their original hive after a month or two. Of course bees aren’t always predictable and it doesn’t always workout this way.
I’ve never done that Rodd: return a swarm to it’s original hive.
I collected a huge swarm at my main sight recently. I finished up splitting that into 2 colonies. I’m pretty sure I know which hive they swarmed from. I’m helping that hive out with a few frames of brood to quickly bring it back to full strength.
I put two frames of brood in the box I smoked the bees out of the cable drum. The bees made queen cells on both frames, so I’m going to swap one of the frames over & get a second colony going with the other frame with queen cells.
The only information I have read about cells size has been anecdotal in regard to varroa control…no evidence that it works. When bees are left to make their own comb…they make lots of different sizes of cell.
Since I have British Standard hives…mainly 14x12 frames…the langstroth for the Flow frames is a departure from the norm for me. I have opted for plastic frames and foundation which I coated with bees wax for my brood chambers. I also have some wax coated foundation to fit into langstroth frames…should I need to use a second brood chamber.
It is said that when hiving a swarm…to not feed them…so they use up any food and anything nasty is not transferred to the new colony. Although later feeding depending on nectar flows may be needed.
One thing I do know is that any new bees…whether they are bought in colonies or whether they are swarms should be isolated away from your apiary. Until they are seen to be free of disease or anything else which could threaten the health of your existing colonies. Something to bear in mind if you don’t have a second apiary.
I must admit that I thought that for a long time, but I have completely changed my mind. What do you do for EFB control?..a shook swarm. The bees in swarming have shaken themselves. Varroa? Then just give the swarm a quick vape 6 days after you’ve hived them. As for feeding, it depends. If the weather is poor then they will need feeding, they need lots to make new comb, much more than one swarm tummy’s worth.
According to MB that is because big bees can’t make small cells. You need to regress them; anecdotal evidence only as you say.
Howdy Jeff, I have no need to expand my colonies so I return them to maximise honey production, unfortunately one queen has to go so I advertise her in a facebook group, Free to a Good Home. Never any shortage of takers, it sure beats having to put her sleep.
I wouldn’t bring a swarm to my apiary…several reasons…firstly…disease/pests and secondly temperament. I have very docile bees and I don’t want the gene pool changed in my area by drones carrying more aggressive traits. I much prefer to make nucs from my colonies for more bees. This year…if we have good weather there will be more chance of swarms from my hives…so I will be practising preemptive swarm control.
I have been looking at Jeff and Wilmas videos about beekeeping in Buderim Australia. Quite interesting that beekeeping is much more an all year round activity unlike in the UK where all the colonies are untouched from October to March…or even April. Some of the manipulations carried out would be more difficult here as we simply don’t get the lengthy nectar flows. I feel quite envious of the ease of weakening colonies…knowing that they have plenty of time to strengthen again before winter. It is a balancing act to get strong colonies for honey production without them swarming here.
Hi guys. Is there any way for me to close this thread. While it’s all very interesting, I asked about what everyone was using for frame foundation. I got my answer. I know this one has gone way in the “swarmed” in a whole different direction. This is an overload of information for this newbie.
Is this how it usually goes when a question gets asked?
It is not uncommon for a thread to evolve as the discussion happens, and I think that is very natural and not a bad thing at all. Discussing foundation choices will naturally lead people to ask why people have made those choices. And so in that regard I think this thread is still very much on topic with the original question. It has just gotten further into the “why it was chosen” instead of simply “what was chosen”.
It might seem overwhelming now, but just take it piece by piece and don’t expect to understand it all immediately. I didn’t understand small cell, wax foundation, plastic foundation, foundationless etc at first either but as I went I picked up a little here and a little there and it started to make a little more sense each time.
That’s good. Then you don’t need to look at it any more.
The rest of us can go on to discuss the merits of small cell foundation. It’s a very popular and contentious issue with beekeepers on each side of the argument being very passionate about it.
You may be a beginner now but not in five years time [quote=“Horsehillhoney, post:27, topic:5567”]
have very docile bees and I don’t want the gene pool changed in my area by drones carrying more aggressive traits.
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The drones your queens mate with depend on those of your neighbours unless you are in a secluded isolated spot. I live in a very rural area yet according to bee base there are 75 apiaries within 10K of me.
It sure is
I looked at Michael Bush’s links
Well I skimmed the first article which applies to scutellata
2nd applied to Africanised honey bees.
The sample was six colonies with 300 cells in each being examined. Not a big sample, then.
Randy Oliver is not himself convinced either
One paper is a simulation
How some bees cope with varroa is multifactorial and not a simple concept. I think it is dangerous for beginners to presume they can grow small bees in small cells and forget varroa treatment.
I’m not saying the small cell proponents are suggesting that but some novices may infer it.
Small cell goes hand in hand with a treatment free approach. Not 100% of people using small cell are treatment free, but 100% of people who are treatment free are small cell. This is obviously a generalization but you get the point. Treatment free beekeeping has been done for year and can be very successful, treatments do not necessarily mean healthier, or longer lived bees. There are plenty of anecdotal stories and studies done that show that treatment free bees fair just as well as treated bees do. Which some would say displays the ineffectiveness of treating.
Not here in the UK
There are plenty of treatment free beekeepers and none describe small cell as far as I can recall. Plenty of people keep their bees on their own comb where the cells are all different sizes.
There is much work being done by Ron Hoskins in Swindon
Natural comb is a form of small cell, as the bees will naturally regress when given the ability to make their own cells. It will just take longer to achieve this then with actual small cell foundation.
Well I skimmed the first article which applies to scutellata
And if they did the experiment on carnica it would not apply to ligustica? Or caucasica? Or carpatica? Or iberiensis? Or lamarckii? Or cypria? Or mellifera mellifera? They are all the same genus and species and all of them are mixed into the North American honey bees. Scutelata are not a separate species, just another race of Apis mellifera.
2nd applied to Africanised honey bees.The sample was six colonies with 300 cells in each being examined. Not a big sample, then.
No. Not a big sample, but a very promising outcome and one more mechanism by which small cell may be a benefit.
Randy Oliver is not himself convinced either
He doesn’t want to disagree with the latest from the US scientists so he continues to find other possible reasons that cell size to explain why they don’t have Varroa problems. If outgassing from plastic is so helpful you would think someone would have noticed by now… he still has bees on the HSC and they continue to have less Varroa.
One paper is a simulation
Yes. On one of the main issues to do with small cell. Shorter pupation.
I am not trying to convince anyone, but to say there is “no evidence that it works” is simply not true.
Small cells partly came about because varroa does better in Drone cells. To my mind if you regrade the bees to a smaller size then you are opening them up to being drained of haemolymph (Bee Blood) quicker than a larger bee.
One of the studies discounted hives that died - but by doing this the study is skewed because the Bee possible/probably dies from varroa inflicted viruses in the first place.
What strikes me would be find out how the Apis cerana (Asian Honey bees) from whence the problem came deal with Varroa Destructor and see what they do differently.
However, there are a few remarkable
differences:
• the life cycle of the Asian honey bee is shorter by one day
• the cappings on top of drone cells have a characteristic pinhole in the middle
• Apis cerana colonies are much smaller than their European honey bee counterparts: the A. cerana population averages between 2,000–5,000, and up to 10,000 for the largest colonies, whereas European honey bee colonies can reach up to 100,000 bees per hive!.
A. cerana colonies tend to swarm and abscond readily because of the pressure of predation in the tropics, where the species comes from. could this be the key?
and a few more references at the end of the article.
you’ve answered your own question[quote=“Valli, post:36, topic:5567”]
Small cells partly came about because varroa does better in Drone cells
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No I think it’s more to do with making a smaller bee which has a shorter pupation time so fewer varroa per mother mite and possible early death of the male mite so no fertilised females
. I like think I do everything possibly to prevent them swarming but the odd hive will go anyway. After they swarm, if I manage to get them back, they go into a Nuc and then are recombined with their original hive after a month or two. Of course bees aren’t always predictable and it doesn’t always workout this way.
[quote=“Horsehillhoney, post:27, topic:5567”]