Perth (WA, AU) Flowhives and honey flow

Hi Jeff, thanks for the reply.

Ah yes I remember reading about the mesh screen debate a while back.

I have the roof holes already covered with aluminium fly screen. Inside the roof cavity is just restricted empty space. Pictures as below:

Would I therefore get the same result if I just put a hive mat either on top or under the mesh screen?

Also with your idea, wouldn’t the bees then have access to inside the roof cavity and therefore a possibility to draw comb? Apologies in advance if I have mis read your post.

My rationality for the keeping the screen was due to ventilation. We’ve had consistent 40 degree plus days so I wanted heat to vent out yet not allowing the bees to move up, also the fact I have a black roof. (I painted it black to absorb more heat during winter when the sun is out because the hive sits under shade for most parts of the day) Apologies if this all sounds confusing. When I get an idea sometimes it can be dangerous :sweat_smile:

In regards to the solid bottom board level, it shouldn’t be a problem as I have adjustable legs. I made the stand out of an old Jarrah fence that a Marri tree crushed at mine!

1 Like

Hi Terance!

Yes the experience is definitely unique to everyone. Unfortunately I have a habit of overthinking! Thanks, I’ll try keep things simple and just go with the flow :wink:

Your old boy must be a popular fella at the club now! I definently know the feeling of enjoying the company of bees.

Yes, I did the wax seeding via roller method. It’s been a real pleasure to watch them slowly redistribute the wax around. I’ve noticed there’s little to none propolis being used compared to others and they haven’t drawn their own wax therefore saving their precious resources. Bees are truely amazing!

Thankyou for your sound wisdom. I wholeheartedly agree with you. All you have to do is be present and watch. I spend most days sitting by them and observing every minute detail.

P.S. The Secret Life of Bees was a great watch! Thank you

1 Like

Hi & you’re welcome Detto, well done on the hive stand with adjustable legs.

I, like Terrence like to have the roof cavity available for the bees to occupy, as a guide to the population strength. I liken it to a population relief valve. I like to look in at least once a fortnight on every hive. Even if it’s just to lift the roof, then partly remove the mat to look down. Only yesterday morning I found one roof 1/2 full of bees. So this morning I used those bees, plus the bees covering the mat to make a nuc.

We’ll probably get spoken to if we talk too much about the fake Flow hive. However in relation to ventilation, I’m not a believer in added ventilation. I like to give the bees an adequate entrance & let the bees air condition their hive via the entrance, which they will do very well.
I like a white roof, especially during hot weather. Another consideration is to make sure the bees have access to water, which they need for the air conditioning process.

1 Like

@SouthEastScarp hi mate, good to see you’re still around, I hope all is well.
@Detto one of the reasons I’ve added the WSP was because having an 8 frame box means less stores than the 10 frame box.
You’ve probably read that I use a white migratory lid with foam board insulation both inside and on top. Full sun no ventilation no straps no worries.
We are in a unique place here especially being amongst the Bush and I’m not particularly fussed about dark comb, my frame cycling is done when I split the colony.:wink:

Yep, agreed, sometimes it’s better to sit on your hands.

2 Likes

I like your idea of the population relief valve. I see how handy it is now.

Say no more mate, I understand.

Your experience definitely speaks for itself, why change something if it works.

In my opinion I think the bees are amazing engineers and will just about make anything work! To think about all the myriad obstacles they have to contend with in nature. It’s very fascinating.

In regards to the water, I plumbed up an automatic top up for my bird bath. Because it’s been so reliable, it’s become the local watering hole!

Thanks for all your food for thought Jeff :+1:

1 Like

Ah fair enough @skeggley, Perhaps my extra 20% will be adequate for now. Time will tell I guess.
I also did some number crunching and came to the conclusion that this bloody hobby is not cheap! You’re right mate, maybe it’s best I just sit on me hands for now.

In the event I do somehow magically acquire more hives I’ll definentaly experiment with both yours and Jeff’s methods in regards to lids. Nothing better than trying something out yourself.

Haha I haven’t even made it that far yet! The day I split a colony is going to be a good day indeed. Fresh frames :sunglasses:

1 Like

Hi Detto, you’re most welcome. Saying “no more” never enters my head.

Bees are amazing engineers, & it is fascinating.

One thing that I must confess that I’ve never thought that bees know best, so let them go ahead & do what they do best. We still need to monitor their progress & be prepared to step in & intervene, should the occasion arise.

Sometimes intervention from us can mean the difference between a colony dying out or continue as a colony…

2 Likes

Hi @Detto,

Results will be a bit different :slight_smile: If you prefer good ventilation, put the mat on top of the frames, under the mesh. If you put the mat on top of the mesh, bees most likely will use propolis to seal the gap between the mat and the edges of the mesh frame. The whole thing will become a sort of solid cover.

The choice between mesh and solid cover in our climate depends on what bees are doing at the moment. When they are rearing brood, bees keep humidity in high - 85-90% in the hive. And a solid cover is a good thing here to help them with this. But, when bees process nectar, they drop humidity much lower to facilitate evaporation of water from it and mesh cover helps in such situation. So, ideally, you may use both. Mesh for the major nectar flow and heatwaves, solid cover for the rest of the year.

3 Likes

Another update :slight_smile:

Small new colonies responded very well to sugar/milk syrup. At the moment each has 4-5 frames of sealed brood and building remaining 4-5 frames. In a couple of weeks, I am planning to check if they are ready for the second brood box.

Large 20-frame colonies did without feeding and now started to put honey in supers. Nothing to write home about at the moment but this allowed me to harvest a bit (~6 kg) from one hive for my immediate needs :slight_smile:

2 Likes

I’m intrigued by the sugar/milk syrup. Is it full cream, skim or something else?

2 Likes

I used dry full cream. It was the most convenient form in my situation.

The longer read :slight_smile:
An explanation of how went this way. I wanted to increase the number of hives. This is my first season in this area and, of cause, I choose the worst possible time to do it. I created nuc-sized colonies, but parent colonies were low on pollen stores and I had almost nothing to share without compromising them. As soon as made the splits, nectar and pollen disappeared from nature. Nothing to worry about I said and bought patties from a local supplier. All colonies refused them. I mean they refused even to touch them. Larger colonies just removed the free paper around patties but patties themselves were intact after 2 weeks. 20-frame colonies were good at this stage, but nucs ate through the frames of honey and were on the way to extinction. Sugar was not a problem, but they were in dire need of protein. The last small batch of bees they produced were pitiful dystrophics. Queens almost stopped laying. Now I can skip the worrying and start to panic I said and went to buy some feed. In my current circumstances, the most readily available form of protein bees may consume was milk from supermarkets.

An additional read :slight_smile:

Bees digest cow milk quite well. They absorb 76.5% of matter from it. For comparison, fresh pollen - 79.1%

Is milk a good substitute for pollen? No. But as a supplement food when it is needed works quite well. For example, when 20% of water is replaced with milk in thick sugar syrup, it contains twice as much protein as honey. Bees love such food and take it readily from feeders. What does it give in real terms? Increase in body protein.

Compared to feeding honey only:

Milk in the mix, % Increase of body protein, %
10 4.5
20 6.6
40 11

How did it work for me? Pollen became available again since the beginning of the story. But small starved colonies don’t have resources to scout and bring food, especially if it is in some distance. Nucs recovered in terms of brood but still did not have much pollen in them. At the same time, the 20-frame colony went from “very little pollen left” to stuffing 8 frames with it. This excess is now shared with small colonies. So time in small colonies development was lost, but feeding milk allowed them to survive through the worst until real help became available.

Any form of milk leads to an increase in brood production when compared to pure sugar syrup. But when different forms are compared results are as follows:

Data obtained in the Northern Caucasus area:

Experiment setup: 40 colonies with queens of the same age, the same amount of brood, honey and bees divided into 4 groups of 10 colonies.

Mixes:
1st group: syrup - 1.86 kg of sugar per 1 l of water
2nd Whole - 1.5 kg per 1L of milk
3rd Skimmed milk - 1.5 kg per 1L of milk
4th Dry milk - 875 g of powder + 250 ml of water to prepare 1 l of milk, then mixed with 1.5 kg of sugar.

Method of feeding:
Spring: began to feed on the 3 of April. Duration - 36 days, 18 times (every second day), 200 g of mix every feed through the top feeder.
Autumn (after the end of nectar collection): started on 26 of August, otherwise the same.

Results:

Spring feeding:

Form of milk added Increase in brood production, %
Pure sugar syrup (control) 100
Whole milk 110.5
Dry milk 108.3
Skimmed milk 106.9

Autumn feeding:

Form of milk added Increase in brood production, %
Pure sugar syrup (control) 100
Whole milk 123
Dry milk 121.6
Skimmed milk 117.6
4 Likes

By the way :slight_smile:

3 Likes

Hi ABB, that’s an interesting read. Thanks for sharing.

Pollen is no problem where I am. It seems that as soon as the rain stops, the bees start bringing pollen back. My main colonies are light on in the honey department, however big in bee numbers. I had to split one heavily the other day, it was getting ready to swarm. Other colonies are not far behind it.

Those frames look perfect - not patchy at all. Bees will leave empty spaces to allow bees to warm up the brood in surround cells. Welcome to the forums and well done on reading the whole thread… I thought I was the only one :rofl:

1 Like

Apologies for the delayed reply @ABB
and thanks for taking the time to answer. I like the fact that it comes down to preference. Each to their own! The plan was always to adjust accordingly to accommodate for the bees.

Also thanks for the great read above. Very interesting experiment! Who would have known.

Cheers @fffffred thanks for the reassurance.

Haha I’ve spent many countless hours reading articles so it was a nice break to read first person experience and better yet local stuff. Throw in a bit of stories, discussions and banter and that saw me through :grinning:

So this just happened… :flushed: I wasn’t expecting it so I even climbed the tree in nothing but my shorts and thongs to get a closer look!

@ABB beat me to it and with a better photo too but thought I’d share nonetheless! :wink:

The other day I did a water change for my fish tanks. I change approx 500L of water each time. I always water the trees close by at random. I don’t know if it’s a coincidence but I’m definitely not complaining!

The other Jarrah trees blossomed a lot earlier. I think perhaps to do with all the rain we had in spring? They usually only seem to blossom every other year and at the same time. So therefore I consider myself quite lucky!

Also on another note after the inspection I did the other day I’ve noticed more activity going on in their super now.

Makes me wonder if it’s because after gorging on honey they become primed energised factories like a swarm would? :thinking:

It’d be interesting to find out what the bees do with the honey after being smoked. Do they re-deposit it or use it for energy?

*Update - I went down the rabbit hole and it turns out there’s a lot of people who actually believe that bees don’t gorge on honey when smoked and think it was Langstroth who started this ‘wives tale’.

I had to make sure this was the case and proceeded to read ‘Langstroth on the Hive and Honey bee’. Originally published in 1853 and revised by Dadant 1907.

Great read by the way, here’s the link for those that are interested:

Sure enough there’s plenty of times when he mentions the above.

However… I couldn’t find any solid evidence online which suggested that they don’t infact gorge on honey when smoked.

Out of curiosity, what have you guys noticed?

1 Like

Hi Detto. Smoke definitely encourages bees to gorge on honey. You can see their little bodies pulsing while they’re gorging on it.

Something else makes bees gorge on honey, which I discovered one day. They also gorge on honey while we do inspections, I’m guessing because their hive is getting raided.

That begs the question: Do they gorge on honey because we smoke them or because we’re raiding their hive.

I use smoke to drive bees away from where I want to return things, like hive mats, for example.

2 Likes

Don’t go there! First, you will be listening to advice from Caterpillar and, second, you will never know what was in that hookah :laughing:

Langstroth is the old school fellow, but at least he has seen bees. Though, in this case, you don’t need to believe anyone. Smoke bees, wait, grab one and squash it. Look what came out besides gut content.

By the way, smoking has other traditional uses. They include all situations when we need bees with crops full of honey. For example, to improve the acceptance of bees by another colony.

2 Likes

Ok, I’ll say it, you were right.
I’m seeing some Marri in bloom along Roe highway also.

Here we have buds at the moment. And not fully formed yet. Looks like it will be late season here. I really hope it will not be like last year. Plenty of flowers and no honey…

1 Like