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#eBay flow frames


#41

Here I go again. Playing the devils advocate but it does need to be mentioned, I predicted this at the beginning when I first came to this forum. It wouldn’t take long for the Chinese to copy. Also they don’t need Stu and Cedars frame to do so. I had also posted a link showing a flow frame invented by a man from Spain in 1939 who patented his frame in the US patent office. Since that has been well expired anyone could use that patent to try and create their own. As far as plastic goes, don’t poo-poo something that might actually work as well. It might not, but then again these from Australia might not either. When I extract my honey it is super thick and has hardly any drip factor to it at all once I uncap my combs. Living where I do I have my doubts, but am still waiting for my flow frames to arrive like everyone else but even then I will not be able to find out if they work till next summer. Who knows maybe by then, the Chinese will have perfected their frames as well if they are inferior. One of the greatest things about America is that competition is highly prized and is what sets the prices where they really should be. If the Chinese make flow frames that work and judging by the prices they are selling them for on ebay. A BIN is $140.00 with $50.00 shipping to the US for two frames, the price isn’t much in difference. I personally am not buying them because I’ve already bought 7 of them from Australia and still have no idea if they will work so why buy more till I know for sure. Now, lets look at the math. Right now the Chinese are selling 2 frames at 140.00 plus $50.00 shipping. Multiply the 140 by 3.5 which equals 490 not including shipping. Currently that cost is higher than what I paid for my 7 I have coming which was $400 plus shipping. However since the cost have been raised instead of lowered it’s still break even. The Chinese aren’t going to be making a killing unless they drastically lower their cost. Stu and Cedar don’t have much to worry about really. One last thing, China is a communist country. I noticed some of the posters on here remarked about infringement and copyright laws. Being a communist country they don’t adhere to the Rule of Law, they adhere to the Rule of Corruption. Therefore no matter what the legalities are for us it’s not going to be recognized by them. You can’t sue for infringment rights in country that is full of counterfeit production and backed by their government with very few rules. Their government only wants counterfeit manufacturers make sure it doesn’t bounce back on them personally, otherwise make whatever you want. This is why the Chinese have been making counterfeit collectible coins for decades.


#42

It may not be illegal to copy in China, But it breaks European, American and Australian Laws if you buy them Caveat emptor - “Let the buyer beware”


#43

I get exactly the same message, just a copy & paste standard response.


#44

That not really true Valli. If ebay is allowing them to be sold on their site, then there isn’t any restrictions against buying them here anyway. Something like that might hold true for things like Ivory or tortise shell, but the proof would be in the actual age of pre-law antiquties. The big issue isn’t that governments collectively care about antiques being sold or bought, but in fact that poaching would be reduced if the sale of such items were to be curtailed from buying and selling overseas. Flow Frames don’t sit in the same league as those mentioned items or other restricted things. If someone in the US buys them and obviously they are because there are bids on those frames in all honesty there is little if anything FlowHive can do about it. Like I said they might be able to get ebay to end those auctions if copyright photos are being used which are the legal property of Flow Hive if in fact the Chinese have borrowed their photos, but in all my years as an antique dealer, there is very little one can do about copycat items. Mattel had a similar situation many years ago over people customizing their toys and selling them again. Mattel really wanted ebay to stop allowing these sales as they felt it infringed on their tangible property rights. nothing came of that either. I just watched a video earlier by a guy who already got his frames and the video showed him having to cut off a couple of tabs on the Flow Frame to get it to fit into his hive. Could he take and make his own flow frame and change up that flaw or buy them from FlowHive and customize them and resell it as his own. That one little design flaw is all it takes.


#45

Use the words knock off and counterfeit and fake. That makes the Amazon bot go crazy.

And by the way, it is totally worth your time to do a review. Negative product reviews make a HUGE difference to Amazon sales.


#46

Actually, I am upping the ante here. I am a fair sized seller on Amazon and have pretty good insight to what makes Amazon tick.

I have ordered the flow fakes from the Amazon seller. When they arrive, and are fakes, I will contact Amazon and open an a to z claim. If this happens more than a few time the seller will be suspended. And Amazon will refund you your money.

So if anyone wants to make a short term investment ($200) into Flow Frame, go buy one and when it arrives complain to Amazon. Then return it for the refund.

I love me some pro active consumerism.


#47

Well its cheeper to buy from the flow team
fake copy best price $75.00 each unit
flow team real deal… $63.50 each unit
so china make a fake and charge more per unit so i dont think Cedar has to much to worry about…


#48

The problem is marketing. If the product is on Amazon and Ebay, then people will NOT go buy it off the Flow Hive site. They won’t. Amazon just owns online sales in most first world countries. And Ebay is a huge market too. Uncontrolled, sales of counterfeit products WILL do massive damage to the flow hive business.


#49

Well Sara I think that’s just sad . U may be right but the true flow followers will stay with the flow team.
Saying that i am ordering my 2 complete flow today from the flow team.


#50

Thank you everyone for your support. We are working on getting ebay and amazon to remove the products. Having great people like you guys standing by us will help shut down the fake sellers. I think the only reason any one would buy one is by mistake. Like a few people have said they are more expensive than ours and even if you could get them a little cheaper why would you buy a product that will not be built to the same quality standard and is likely to use poorer quality plastics.


#51

Noticed the eBay items are still up @Jake,How did you go with eBay? I did send the Patent number after he (I suspect its just one little chinese man) replied to my request to take the sale down and he did say he would if I produced a Patent no. However my emails were again replied to today with “…” not sure what that means. But eBays rules are quite clear
"eBay doesn’t allow unauthorised replicas, counterfeit items, or unauthorised copies to be listed on eBay. Unauthorised copies may include things that are bootlegged, illegally duplicated, or pirated. These kinds of things may infringe on someone’s copyright or trademark.

So they should take these sales down if you report it to them properly.
http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/policies/replica-counterfeit.html


#52

I am doing a smug little happy dance here this morning.

Taotuo, the seller on Amazon, has cancelled my order, sent an email saying they were never going to sell the Flow Fake again (HAH! I’ll believe that when I see it…)

And they have actually taken down the two offers for the flow fakes, from their storefront.


Dear Sara,

Thanks for you response, thanks very much

We
have realize our mistake for selling the flow hive, and we have close
the two listing, and won’t sell the beehive again, we promise

And
can you please cancel the order please, we will very appreciate about
you kindness. And after you have cancelled the order, the money will
back to your account

Appreciate your kindness for cancel the order (You can send us a order cancellation request, we will do it immediately)

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me

Have a nice day,

Best Regards,

Taotuo Customer Service Department


Dear Sara,

I am sorry for selling the flow hive on Amazon, please accept my apologize

Can you please cancel the order, and you can follow the steps under below

  1. Enter your Amazon seller account, click CONTACT SELLER
  2. After that, the system will tell you to SELECT A TOPIC, then CHOOSE CANCEL ORDER
  3. Then choose CANCEL ORDER

Please accept my sincerely apologize again

Best Regards,

Michael Chan


It’s nice to actually be able to have a small impact, even if it is only a temporary victory!


#53

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.


#54

I agree with Dexter.
A hollow victory.
You should stop trying to defend a business that isn’t yours no matter how much you might be in love with the innocent concept. Buy your flow from flowframe and be done with it. What others might do is up to them.


#55

They have closed the listing. Currently it is not for sale on Amazon. Ebay is a much more wild west sort of environment. I am not naïve enough to thing it is a permanent victory, but Amazon has some real pitfalls for sellers and if you get crosswise with them they WILL close your account.

I am sure the flow team is working thru Amazon’s trademark system and will get any blatant copies removed. But that takes time. Better to get the listings voluntarily closed so that there are not any sales happening right now. Because Amazon is an ENORMOUS market. Preventing or impeding sales there is closing a huge gap.

And you guys are spoil sports. I have (obviously) bought my flowframe from the Aussies. And it never occurred to me that anyone would do anything other than what they wanted to do. I just put out the info for anyone who cared to consider it.


#56

Stellar effort @sara! People doing little things like that make a difference. It is a slow process negotiating with amazon and ebay, we will get there but it may take a little time. Often a little well thought out civil disobedience can be the best option :smirk:


#57

Can someone please tell me how to post my reply on eBay - I want to help! I’ve got Amazon down - but can’t figure out how to say it’s a fake on eBay.


#58

Down the bottom of the Selling page is the Questions to the Seller area… Use this and include the Flow Hive Patent No. which is US 2014/0370781 A1 Published date of Dec 18 2014


#59

thanks - I’m on it -


#60

Thanks for the patent no. Have done a second round of contacting ebay and letting them know their violation. However, the counterfeit sellers have been pretty wily. The following item http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Beekeeping-2-Flow-HiveFrame-Flow-Honey-Extractor-Brood-Box-Harvesting-Honey-Tool-/261995761571 has a picture of the patent application in China (!)
"We have already apply for a patent for the fram bee hive ,here is the application certification: "

Hah! I like their copy and paste of all the materials and hardwork done by the inventors on the listing. So just copy and paste everything and pass it as your own. And by the way, apply for a Chinese patent application so even Cedar can’t apply for a patent for his own invention now in China! Ebay is competing against Alibaba but in the end their lack of attention over this will mean ebay will soon have listings from fakers and counterfeiters…and consumers who are beyond that will move on…to Amazon I suppose.